I left this comment on the White America forum:
IanJ: Also, there is only a small community of non-anti-Semitic pro-whites to begin with.
That’s probably because the very concept of being a “pro-Jewish, pro-white, anti-anti-Semite” is an oxymoron. While it is true that many anti-Semites are deranged conspiracy theorists who blame the Jews for everything (everyone who has been around this scene a long time has encountered these people), most intelligent, reasonable, openminded pro-whites can see there is an element of truth to what they say.
The American Jewish community is the vanguard of the far left-wing of the progressive movement. White racial consciousness is an anathema to all but a tiny minority of Jews. Kevin MacDonald and others are right when they point out that Jews played a major role in the Civil Rights Movement, demonizing Western culture, undermining the scientific legitimacy of racial classifications, the list goes on. Jews finance and/or control the worst anti-white organizations in the United States like the SPLC and the ADL.
The small minority of pro-whites who post here believe the kookiness of the fringe right is worse than the damage done to our cause by hostile, anti-white Jews. I don’t see the logic in that judgment. I might find people such as “Bill White, World Commander of National Socialism” silly, unsavory, and embarrassing, but reason kicks in and reminds me that they are marginal, powerless, cartoon figures; a non-factor in the dispossession of white Americans.
I’m sure that my impression is shared by many others: what sense does it make to be pro-Jewish when Jews are so typically anti-white? Until you people resolve that dilemma (and I see no evidence you are trying to do so), you are doomed to remain a minority within a minority, a whisper within a roar of angry white discontent.
Yosemite you forgot a few supposedly pro-White Jews:
* Paul Gottfried
* Marcus Epstein
* Nicholas Stix
* Edwin S. Rubenstein & Carl Horowitz of VDARE (among others?)
The so-called “pro-white Jews” are more committed to their co-ethnics than they are to the pro-white movement.
Perhaps I support cooperative pan-nationalism whereas you support white nationalism.
I don’t mind German Americans being pro-German, Polish americans being pro-Polish etc. That may explain why we see the Jewish question differently.
I don’t live in an area where pro-white politics have a strong history. The tradition is more to fracture by ethnicity as you move North.
Latte island is another pro-White Jew or run of the mill Jewish race realist apparently – http://latteisland.blogspot.com/
That blogger has a weird obsession/revulsion about Hispanics shopping at the same haughty suburban supermarkets they frequent; see: http://latteisland.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-saw-central-american-gang-member-in.html
The totalitarian tendencies of Jewry shine through in that post: “Gang members should be killed. That people like him can shop openly in a suburban Trader Joe’s is evidence that we’re lost.”
There are also the typical Jewish obsessions about Islam trying to take over the world and other some such Jew twaddle. latte island = Lawrence Auster Lite, basically.
Let’s be clear: Jews have no place within the pro-white movement. And that includes such deceptively “pro-white” elements as Paul Gottfried, Marcus Epstein, Nocholas Stix, Edwin Rubenstein, Carl Horowitz, Michael Hart, Michael Levin, Lawrence Auster, Michael Berman, Mayer Schiller, the Jewish contributors to White America, the Jewish contributors to View from the Right, etc.
I still support considering Amren (and Jobling) a race realist organization, not a pro-white organization.
Call it what you want to call it, Amren was set up for phd style intellectuals and not kkk style “pro-whites.” I don’t get this idea that Jews should be unwelcome there while kkk and types should be welcomed.
I mean kkk and neo-nazis act like Taylor and Jobling betrayed them. They didn’t. They never gave any indication that they felt the sentiments of antisemitism and never betrayed anyone by changing their positions.
“Yosemite: Let’s be clear: Jews have no place within the pro-white movement.”
Exactly. What we pro-White activists need to be increasingly wary of in the coming years as pro-White activism inevitably grows more popular and widespread due to the amazing communicatory powers of the internet is Jews coming in to the pro-White movement and hijacking it, trying to dominate it and then water it down and ultimately ruining it just like they do with ALL other White-invented, White-led, and White-organized political and social movements. Jews are not culture creators but are culture subversives and in their most virulent form they are culture destroyers…they steal ideas and movements and inventions from Whites and then twist them all up with their incompetent managerialism and non-idealism, thus ruining them for everyone involved. History of course shows that Jews are major RUINERS…ruiners of ideas, ruiners of movements, ruiners of nations.
Iceman…of course Taylor isn’t an anti-Semite…HE’S GOT A JEWISH WIFE.
Let’s be even clearer: you have no way to prevent them. None whatsoever.
Furthermore, since WNs, very generally speaking, can fairly be called the greatest collection of misanthropes ever assembled it’s not at all obvious any “pro-white” suffers from having Jews associated with it.
My point is, if we allow the Jew to have free play within the pro-white OR the race-realist movement, then before we know it, all of our efforts will be diverted to Jewish ends. That’s what happened to conservatism (in the form of neoconservatism), and it is also happening, to a lesser extent, within pro-white and race-realist circles. The growing Islamophobia within the pro-white movement is just one manifestation of this disturbing tendency.
Why, for instance, are nationalists in Europe like the Vlaams Belang, Geert Wilders, the Austrian Freedom Party, the BNP, etc., now saying that they oppose Moslems and support Israel? It’s because Jewish influence and indoctrination have become pervasive even within pro-white circles. It will destroy our movement just as it destroyed conservatism in the US.
We need to re-embrace the original philosophy and political strategy, particularly with reference to the Jewish Question, as laid out by by such leaders as William Pierce, George Lincoln Rockwell, and (to a lesser extent) David Duke. Such an approach may have been less than successful in the past, but it is far more likely to yield fruitful gain in these troubling economic times than the philosemitic strategy of anti-Islamisation as advocated by the nationalist parties of Europe today. The latter strategy may seem politically useful in the short-term, but in the long term in means further conformity to Jewish ethnic interests, and we need to have a sphere where such interests are rigorously excluded.
The BNP, according to its article “Why we must reject judeo-obessivism” is indifferent to Israel, not supportive of Israel. It declared the issue irrelevant.
The point you are missing is that conservatism (republicanism) is a democratic movement. It is based on Democratic principles. It is open to infiltration. Amren is a business producing a publication, not a political party. If you are highly centralized, then nobody will infiltrate you. What you are alleging is analogous to saying that if you sell gas to black people, they might infiltrate the gas stations. So don’t sell them gas. But if you are highly centralized and non-democratic, it doesn’t matter how many “neo-cons” give you money.
It isn’t Amren’s niche to accommodate William Pierce style ideology any more than it is Microsoft’s niche to compete with McDonalds. You have places to promote Rockwell’s ideology and can do it in many different channels. But Amren is not the appropriate place for that any more than the Catholic Church is the appropriate place to push an pro-abortion platform.
A political party like the BNP should be highly selective of its leadership and careful not to allow infiltration. Common sense is sufficient there. But it also has to be broad in its appeal to casual voters.
By being highly selective, yes Zionist infiltrators should be disallowed from leadership but Hitlerites should be purged too. With sincere Jewish supporters, that is a different issue.
When it comes to lesser roles, being restrictive is just plain stupid. If a negro wants to hand out BNP flyers, why stop them from giving you publicity?
“The BNP, according to its article ‘Why we must reject judeo-obessivism’ is indifferent to Israel”
Its members are overwhelmingly supportive of the apartheid state of Israel, even if the BNP’s official stance is one of indifference. The ‘tone’ of the party can be determined by a careful examination of its member. Courting the Jewish vote, the BNP has fallen to the lies of philosemitism and anti-Moslem hysteria.
“The point you are missing is that conservatism (republicanism) is a democratic movement.”
We are in the business of racial survival, not /running/ a business. Nationalist Politics, as I conceive of it, does not follow business structure and organisation, but is the organic outgrowth of the people’s racial will to power, a value-creating manifestation of our racial collective consciousness . It’s not in “competition” with other politicalor philosophical doctrines. It is /us/. People who claim to be nationalistic, or pro-white, or race-realist, yet support, or are ‘indifferent’ to Jewish involvement in the pro-white movement, therefore support, are or ‘indifferent’, to the surivival of the white race.
I understood your point. Your point is retarded. Truth doesn’t stop being truth if a Jew speaks it; a good idea doesn’t stop being a good idea if a Jew proposes it; and racial salvation doesn’t become racial death if a Jew supports it.
Actually, the growing Islamophilia is a sign that nutzi losers are completely losing touch with reality. Please, no one needs a Jew to tell him that Islam is retarded and anti-western (and anti-racist, for that matter).
Wanting AIPAC off your back doesn’t require you to hate Israel or support the Arabs.
You can do whatever you want, but the fact is you’re powerless to prevent Jews taking a racialist stance and promoting racially sane views.
You’re in the business of selling a political position. It’s naive beyond belief to think that just because your product has “Race” written on the packaging people will snap it up without a sound marketing campaign. In this, yes, you are competing (in your eyes) against similar products marketed by “the Jews” (and, for that matter, myself) and which product proves successful is something you have no way of preventing the market from deciding.
Yosemite, who were you in White America
And listen: Duke’s “White Nationalism” is completly useless. His lines are much more bigger than Taylor’s lines and Race Realism is still much more effective when it comes to activism. It’s a fact, in Stormfront they have almost no activism, just a bunch of angry White people blaming everyone for their personal problems.
Also, I agree with everything that Silver said in his last post.
Great, Silver is back and has fan club.
“Furthermore, since WNs, very generally speaking, can fairly be called the greatest collection of misanthropes ever assembled…”
Well, this is what our Jewish ‘friends’ think of US!
“it’s not at all obvious any “pro-white” suffers from having Jews associated with it… .”
Yeah, as long as a group has Jewish ‘approval’ — is ‘certified Kosher’ — then said group can be neutered into an amorphous, meaningless debating society with no real power or purpose.
We really can’t blame the Chosenites for this one, since they feel they must control everything, ESPECIALLY the opposition.
Blame yourself White man, for having little to no self-confidence; for being supplicating approval seekers — and thanks to your vanity, letting yourselves be used and deceived by them.
I think when many Jews try to assert themselves on racial matters and reach the conclusion of right wing ideology, it is unfortunate that narrow minded people accuse them of conspiring to take over the “wn movement.” Perhaps the individual Jew is acting on his own impulse and is indifferent to such a movement and merely looking for a platform to advance his/her viewpoints.
Just because Jews start talking about race and acting more right-winged does not mean they are gunning to take control over the wn movement, as if the movement is even important enough to want to control.
“Furthermore, since WNs, very generally speaking, can fairly be called the greatest collection of misanthropes ever assembled…”
and, best of all…..
“it’s not at all obvious any “pro-white” suffers from having Jews associated with it… .”
So what is essentially being said is it’s as though White folks have no moral worth unless they look up to and gain approval from the ‘Chosen-ites’ (good term Truth)!
Aahh, interesting how their [sic] honesty indeed comes out through their dishonesty!
Our movement should be as much about White self-respect as it would be about anything else.
In fact, it should — no must — come first! So please, if you don’t see the above comments as the insults they are, then you really don’t need to be in the WN movement. Period.
No, there is no reason why a kike would be so enthusiasic about something so contrary to the interests of his co-ethnics. There has to be an ulterior motive at work here.
Truth,
Truth, is it so unbelievable that people not associated with your movement might take a look at it and find it lacking in human qualities? Your insistence that every racial other is an inherent and immutable foe and your lack of interest in substantiating this point of view when asked to only confirms my (non-Jewish) assessment of you.
Yosemite,
That’s only true if you believe racialism is necessarily contrary to Jewish interests. I contend that it is not that and there is no essential reason it need be.
ATBOTL,
Why don’t you check out my blog? You can voice your disagreement or attempt to prove your case against me right here.
Iceman,
That’s a defeatist point of view. Regardless of how popular racialism is it remains a superior idea and ought to be considered important enough to wish to influence. The wisely suspicious only need judge the value of racial opinion contributed by Jews or others by the result its logic would deliver.
I mean honestly, there are plenty of right wing racialists in the world who don’t identify as “WN.” You can’t take credit every time someone shifts to the right. People are capable of viewing and analyzing the world without your help.
I am not going to argue about this any further with you, silver. Jews do not belong in the pro-white movement. Period. End of story. It doesn’t matter how many Jews want to join the ranks of the pro-white movement. They are the historical enemy of the European people and any attempt on their part to infiltrate our ranks indicates a desire to divert our efforts to Jewish and Zionist ends. Pro-Jewish websites like ‘White America’ and V-Dare constitute a kind of racial treason against European Americans. Every Jew should be expelled from our circles, and ultimately, expelled from the world.
“Your insistence that every racial other is an inherent and immutable foe…”
I am not saying this at all. I was reacting to the back-handed ‘compliment’ that a White movement somehow ‘needs’ Jewish members as spokesman (or at least very visable) in order to look ‘respectable’.
If one is Jewish and is sincere in his/her beliefs about the legitimacy of White ethnic interests, that is fine with me and they would/should be welcome.
However, we should be careful of those–Jews and/or whomever–in the racialist movement who would readily conflate White interests with Zionist ones, since they are not necessarily the same, and sometimes do conflict.
So, here is my substantiation of this point of view, since I am being asked.
You can take my opinion or you can leave it, but in my opinion, radical and obsessed antisemtiism in the name of nationalism only serves the interest of internationalist Jews. Using a hatchet when a scalpel would be sufficient only benefits international Jewry and all internationalism for that matter.
I’m of course separating nationalist Jews from internationalist Jews.
No, Iceman, I did not ask for your “opinion”. I was debating with silver. I have been told from several sources that you yourself are a Jew. You therefore have a genetic interest in conflating white interests with Jew interests. And I will have no part in that.
Yosemite,
You are correct if your conception of a pro-white movement is something akin to a club with membership cards. But at its core a “pro-white movement” is just a set of political opinions not essentially different to opinions on greenhouse emissions or minimum wages. As such, it is impossible for you to prevent Jews contributing their own racial opinions. Hell, they already do — those opinions just tend to be “anti-racist.” The heart of your opposition comes down to what Jews are — in your opinion, non-white. Which is fine. But it is not impossible that a non-white could come to an understanding of your plight and agree that you have a point. And of course, any “movement” that toes a strict Jews-are-not-white line but holds that everyone else in Europe is is not intellectually serious or politically tenable.
You like making things difficult for yourself, don’t you?
Truth,
The suggestion was that it would benefit, just as it would from anyone, of any other racial stripe, taking a similar position. At this late stage I don’t think that can seriously be doubted. The alternative is an armed uprising, which is certainly possible, but I find it astonishing that other options would not be exhausted first. This remains true even if one desires an eventual “every square inch” reconquest.
Jews as a hostile and problematic non-White/non-European ethnic minority should definitely be excluded from the upper-tiers and leadership positions within the racialist/race realist, White nationalist/European nationalist, and pro-White/pro-European movement…it would be utterly absurd if non-Whites/non-Europeans like Jews hijacked the pro-White movement and became the main pro-White ideologues, thinkers, managers, or leaders. How are Jews able to become major or main pro-White thinkers or ideologues if they are genetically, culturally, and religiously non-White? How are Jews supposed to permanently preserve/protect/defend Whites and wax philosophical about the virtues of Whiteness if they themselves are not White?
However, if Jews like Gottfried, Auster, Epstein, Levin, Hart and the others as described above @ #55 by Yosemite want to write articles and books or have websites which are sympathetic to the pro-White cause then they are of course free to do so…just don’t let them infiltrate the upper-echelons and gain too much power and control – because once Jews manage to infiltrate, hijack, and come to dominate a movement or a cause or a political party or a business or whatever they inevitably soil it, corrupt it, ruin it.
History shows us that Jews as a group tend toward corruption, greed, incompetence, conspiracy, non-idealism, rootlessness, superficial urbanity, and other ills…they also make terribly uninspiring leaders (when did the last truly great Jewish leader exist…back in Biblical times?) and greedy, short-sighted managers (for them it’s always all about “The bottom line,” i.e. PROFIT).
As I wrote above Jews are not culture creators but are cultural subversives – they are not culturally advanced enough to have a rooted culture or true nation of their own so they have to leech off of others; Jews have to adopt the language, economic/political ideas, and general culture and customs of non-Jewish groups and nations because they are cultural inferiors. Thus Whites should not let these rootless cultural inferiors gain too much power or influence in their countries – that is just common sense. Would you let the Roma people (gypsies) run your banks or your political system? Of course not…so why the Jews? They are nothing more than ‘super-gypsies.’ In their most virulent form they are culture destroyers…meaning Jewish infiltration and domination of a non-Jewish group or nation eventually leads to the ruin of that nation or people (history offers many examples). Jews also steal ideas and movements and inventions from Whites and then hijack and twist them all up with their incompetent managerialism and non-idealism, thus ruining them for everyone involved.
There are many movements, political parties, and political ideas which have been ruined because Jews got their claws too deep in to them…a movement or idea like European socialism eventually morphed in to Marxism/Judeo-Communism/Jewish Bolshevism once the Jews managed to steal and ultimately pervert the original Euro-socialist ideas.
There really is no denying that history demonstrates that Jews are major RUINERS…ruiners of ideas, ruiners of movements, ruiners of peoples and nations.
There is no such a thing as “religiously White” unless you are talking about European pagan religions, since Christianism is not a “White religion”. Ashkenazi Jews are obviously White European both culturally and anthropologically.
I’m glad I’m not a white nationalist. It’s great to not have to deal with this shit haha.
Re:Dúnadan – “There is no such a thing as “religiously White” unless you are talking about European pagan religions, since Christianism is not a “White religion”.”
When I say that Jews are not “religiously White” I mean that their historic/traditional religion of Judaism (being Near Eastern/Semitic in origin) is entirely alien to Europe and Whites in general. You are definitely correct to say that Christianity is not a “White religion” either since its origins lie in the Near East and it is of course an offshoot or child religion of Judaism.
“Ashkenazi Jews are obviously White European both culturally and anthropologically.”
Not true. Genetic science/biology/anthropology proves otherwise: http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/01/how_ashkenazi_jewish_are_you.php & http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/04/snps-dont-lie.php – However, there has been quite a bit of mixing between Jews and Whites in the last 100 years or so, and this is where the confusion and blurred lines get complicated.
Ashkenazi Jews have been VERY different in a cultural sense than Whites historically, and this even persists in modern times amongst Jews who follow Orthodox Judaism (which is currently the fastest growing Jewish demographic by far). In the recent past (about 150 years ago and back), nearly 100% of Jews followed Orthodox forms of Judaism and thus differed vastly from the non-Jews who they lived among as rootless wanderers, interlopers, usurpers, exploiters, and parasites.
“I’m glad I’m not a white nationalist. It’s great to not have to deal with this shit haha.”
Then why ya here?
Of course you are not a white nationalist. Or a nationalist of any stripe, for that matter. You are a Jew. Your genetic interest as a Chosenite is securing a safe environment for Israel and punishing the goyim for their “bigotry”.
Because Prozium shifts his theme from time to time. Sometimes he’s for a far left far right synthesis, other times he’s kissing up to majority rights, other times he’s for free speech.
Just wait a year and he’ll switch again.
Prozium is fine by me. The only one here who is continually changing his focus is you. In your off-line life, you are probably a typical Jew, seething with racist anti-white and anti-Moslem hatred. In your online life, you take up the ‘race-realist’ point of view and present yourself as some sort of nationalist. Pure hypocrisy and deception. As a Jew, you are incapable of honest discourse, and I don’t see why Prozium allows you to post here.
You don’t know the first thing about the history of the posters here, how they arrived here, and why they say what they say they do.
WWM,
Removing the terms “major” and “main,” by recognizing the state of affairs that exists and the trends that are in place and agreeing that no good can come of any of it, neither for them nor for you.
Iceman,
Do you see any value in any form of racial separation (be it local — eg a “negro quarter,” a “jewish quarter” etc — or national)? If so, isn’t it a worthier political objective than retarded economic collectivism? Economic collectivism can only fail to achieve what its proponents claim for it yet it maintains a stranglehold on many a thinker’s imagination. Even if it could achieve what its proponents claim, who could it want it if means living around racial incompatibles/undesirables? Surely if multiracialism it must be then the natural sorting that genetic economic success permits is superior, ie Brazil sucks but it would suck twice as hard as a commie hellhole.
WWM,
Furthmore, insisting on a binary white/non-white distinction does not simplify matters, it complicates them. A binary distinction causes people to clamor to be designated “white” but a failure to obtain acceptance as either “white” or “equally white” can cause people to drop out of racialism altogether or to directly oppose it, an excellent example of the latter being former VNNer now clownish communist “JP Slavyanski.” This would not have been problematic one hundred years ago but with the extensive mixing that has taken place since (and that will take place in the future) it becomes highly problematic.
There should be a territorial divide between philosemitic race realists and antisemitic “white nationalists,” and both sides should respect each other’s boundries.
Yes, if an organization like Amren makes it part of their business strategy to obviously package in a bunch of Jewish speakers, than VNNers and Stormfronters should consider themselves unwelcome to come and complain about it.
66silver
”Actually, the growing Islamophilia is a sign that nutzi losers are completely losing touch with reality. Please, no one needs a Jew to tell him that Islam is retarded and anti-western (and anti-racist, for that matter).”
But you need someone to tell you that the Worlds conflicts all have cultural flavours attached to them that should not be assigned to Islam. You make a good point only to destroy it at the same time.