In Raining On Your Parade, I stirred up a hornet’s nest by expressing my long held annoyance with race realism. This stems from my belief that the RRs never tackle the central issues at the heart of racial division. Instead, they argue around the edges of the race debate like conservative immigration restrictionists.
For me at least, it ultimately doesn’t matter that negroes are less intelligent or more likely to be criminals than Whites. These are secondary considerations. If the facts were otherwise, I would still be a separatist.
My starting point is the perception that I belong to a distinct group with interests that conflict with other groups. I oppose affirmative action because it is “bad for Whites,” not because it is unjust on non-discrimination grounds. The smartest and most successful non-Whites are the ones who are most acutely conscious of their racial identity. They are far more problematic than the underclass which the RRs tend to focus on.
This insoluble clash over identity and power within multiracial societies is the basis of my separatism. I don’t have to prove that Whites were on top in the Dark Ages to justify this belief.
That’s all well and good, but your brand of WN is based on your feeling only. It’s not very persuasive to those who don’t really give a shit about white group interests, which means the majority of whites. There’s no ground for communication with non-WNs. Either you care, or you don’t.
Contrast with RR, with deals with facts, and shows that demographic changes are probably going to take us to hell in a handbasket in ways that most everybody can agree on, regardless of their feelings towards the white race per se.
It’s easy to argue that diversity per se is good, not so easy to argue that a huge lumpenprole proletariat is good.
I agree with what you say here. I too am pro-white because I am white, pro-Northern European because I descend from them, because of their physical beauty, accents, and personalities. Not merely because they may have a higher IQ or are better at some sports.
If a white person is only average does that mean they are unworthy? No. I agree this is not the basis of racial preservation.
However, I think because whites are the most beautiful, in my opinion, and have contributed so much to the world, that just reinforces the importance of their survival.
The dark tribes that still live as if in the Stone Age are ethnocentric and want to preserve themselves all the same, but if they were to disappear would it effect the world in any meaningful way? No. If whites vanished would the world change? Monumentally.
I think race realism, not the philo-Semitic kind, is important just because it explains inequality and defends against rampant egalitarianism and race equality. I’d like to see more of it in the mainstream media.
RRs cite plenty of facts all right; facts which don’t lead to the conclusion that Whites should separate from non-Whites. Instead, countless hours are spent debating extraneous issues of no relevance to separatism.
I once thought like you and argued for “separatism” on the basis that you concluded…multicuturalism leads to tension.
But then I realized that such a viewpoint is extremely utopian and simplistic. If indigneous peoples control their own nations, I would be happy. I droped being a separatist and switched to being a third positionist nationalist with race realist tendencies.
An older classic frrom one of the classiest ladies in the pro-White blogosphere today — VANISHING AMERICAN
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PRIDE, GUILT — AND SURVIVAL
“The blog entry quoted touches on the issue of the continuity and survival of our people, and that reminds me of a thread at Steve Sailer’s blog, discussing the recent Atlantic piece on ‘The End of White America.” While Sailer takes a sanguine approach to the subject, seeming to imply that we are still in the driver’s seat despite appearances, the thread devolves into the usual stuff about how Asian women are preferable to White American women. One poster boasts that he has found a suitable wife among a good ‘Sunni Muslim’ family and that others might want to follow suit if they ‘want their genes to live on.”
[…]
“So I really cannot see how the supposedly ‘racially aware’ commenters at Sailer’s blog can be so careless about the continuation of their line as to choose outmarrying. It makes no sense. I suppose there is not necessarily any connection between being cognizant of racial differences in a detached, ‘scientific’ sense as many of Sailer’s readers supposedly are, and having a deep commitment and love for your own. One can have the former attitude without feeling the latter, obviously.
“Some of the commenters at Sailer’s blog seem to prize IQ rather too highly, using this as an excuse to seek Asian wives, because Asians are said to have a higher average IQ. However, IQ is not the be-all and the end-all for those of us that love our people. Just as we love our families ‘warts and all’ because they are ours, we should love our people for that reason, regardless of whether we (supposedly)have only the ‘second-best’ IQ scores in the world. Intelligence is wonderful, and we should value it, but not above its actual worth. Character and temperament, as well as creativity, are more important than just intelligence, which can be a cold and sterile thing if not blended with the above.”
Vanishing American: January 2009 — Pride, guilt — and survival
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http://vanishingamerican.blogspot.com/search?q=pride+guilt+survival
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We love ya VA for the genuine LOVE you have for your People — and for THE TRUTH!!
It is possible to include facts, kinship, and feelings into an overall strategy. Facts are nice but they are only pretty dots, feelings are great but thinkers need more, kinship is important but needs facts and feelings as a reinforcement. We can’t just limit ourselves to quoting each other endlessly on blogs, we need to see some serious results, time isn’t on our side.
“We love ya VA for the genuine LOVE you have for your People — and for THE TRUTH!!”
Sorry, U 2 Brother Proz! 🙂
A sample of RR sites on the question of whether Whites should separate from Jews and non-Whites:
Robert Lindsay – No
Ian Jobling – No
Guy White – No
American Renaissance – No
Steve Sailer – No
GNXP – No
Half Sigma – No
Dienekes – No
Prozium, would you agree that RR can at least create a spark, wake up some white people from their multicultural stupor and set them on a path to racial preservation? I think it can.
Some people have to get their feet wet first before jumping in.
“This insoluble clash over identity and power within multiracial societies is the basis of my separatism. I don’t have to prove that Whites were on top in the Dark Ages to justify this belief.”
Spot on. At the most fundamental level, we do not have to “prove” anything: the survival of our people is its own justification. The core of this issue is white survival, however whites might compare to competing racial groups. Does the Malaysian have to prove his superiority in order to justify his people’s continued existence? Of course not, and we should not have to either.
Only whites have to plead and justify their right to exist. The continued existence of other peoples is simply taken as a given, as an absolute right. This fact alone should amply demonstrate the intellectual dishonesty and shameless hypocrisy of the environment in which we must operate. Our enemies quite literally deny us our right to exist as a people.
In the deepest sense, no *argument* can justify our cause, and no argument can refute it. Again, survival is its own justification. But, having said that, there are tactical issues to consider. In the here and now, we do in fact need to persuade people to rally to our standard, or at least not to oppose us. How is the best way to do that? Race realism? Pointing out Jewish perfidy? Both? Something else?
In other words, what works? To the extent that race realists can generate support for our position and weaken that of our opponents, more power to them. Same for those who point out the Jewish role in our predicament, or whatever other strategy can bear fruit. Let a thousand experiments bloom, and three cheers for anyone who increases our support. .
But let’s not allow these arguments and tactics to distract us from the deeper reality: our continued existence as a people is justification enough. It cannot be refuted.
Where has Dienekes ever stated he was pro-white in any way?
AmRen is set apart from the rest of those because they are explicitly pro-white. Jared Taylor does not advocate a militant separation, but he does say that separation is normal and healthy. He advocates freedom of association, and we all know that if whites were truly free to separate and discriminate the majority would.
I don’t think our racial survival is a logical proposition or an abstraction to be discussed with deadpan objective indifference.
I believe people already do largely separate along family and tribal lines, though it isn’t always directly along racial lines. It may be a neighborhood that is mainly Italian then the next is mainly German immigrants. But it isn’t black in white. Even in a mainly Italian neighborhood, 20% or so won’t be Italian.
If globalistic forces are defeated, society will naturally move closer to separatism, but I do not think it will be 100% separatist in black and white. Every white neighborhood will have its token negro. etc. For every rule, there is an exception.
“Spot on. At the most fundamental level, we do not have to “prove” anything: the survival of our people is its own justification.
[…]
“Does the Malaysian have to prove his superiority in order to justify his people’s continued existence? Of course not, and we should not have to either.”
“—OF COURSE NOT, AND WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EITHER—”
*This is so eloquently put, I am printing it out (in bold Lucida Calligraphy font) and am GOING TO FRAME IT!!!*
—
Trainspotter,
I wish I could buy you (and Proz) a beer tonight! How ’bout a virtual one?
VA makes a very good observation about the cogelites.
Mark,
In some cases, I suppose RR can lead to WN. More often than not though, RRs are libertarians, philo-Semites, race-mixers, cogelitists, or non-Whites. This indicates to me that something else besides RR is driving WN. That’s what I am trying to articulate here.
I notice I’m happiest when I skip Iceman’s comments completely. I recommend it.
RRs are like the conservatives who argue against “illegal immigration.” They utilize every argument but the most essential ones.
The fact that you need to tell me that you are “skippin them” means you aren’t as indifferent as you want to be.
I liked this post by Bob Whitaker. It is even more true of the RRs.
http://www.whitakeronline.org/blog/2009/07/24/near-misses/
“This indicates to me that something else besides RR is driving WN.”
For most I suspect it is the pursuit of EGI as filtered through the faith gene.
Prozium, never was the north american area now controlled by USA every completely racially + tribally (dividing Indians into tribes, Euros into nationalities) segregated. There was a vertical hierarchy of races as you previous noted, but never 100% segregation to the point of not living near someone of another race.
I sympathize with your desire to separate but I am as much a realist as an idealist and realize other factors such as business interests make 100% separatism impossible. We can be more separate, more self-respecting and ban interracial marriage, but as long as there is a global economy, there will be exceptions to every rule when it comes to where people are geographically located.
“The fact that you need to tell me that you are “skippin them” means you aren’t as indifferent as you want to be.”
Just enough. however. 🙂
Prozium’s #8 was a bit unfair in that he stipulated separation from Jews. I also insist on separation from Jews (solely because I see them as the main pushers of race-replacement and I don’t see that changing) but let’s not be greedy — considering strictly the issue of halting race-replacement of whites, I’ll take whatever support I can get: if someone explicitly opposes race-replacement of whites but sees no reason to separate from the Jews that’s OK, no? I’ll disagree with him on the Jews but hey, let’s not start off demanding the moon right off the bat, shall we?
So, taking Prozium’s list but leaving aside the question of the Jews, we get:
“Should whites be permitted to separate from non-whites?”
Robert Lindsay – yes and no, mainly no, whites shouldn’t be permitted to separate, but he keeps crawling backwards to equivocate so he’s very unclear; I would rate him a yes-and-no tilting very strongly to the no side against whites.
Ian Jobling – definitely yes.
Guy White – what tiny bit I’ve read of him, yes.
American Renaissance – obviously yes.
Steve Sailer – not clear — he’s tainted himself with that “Citizenism” thing (I say that as an immense fan of his, but it’s true — “Citizenism” does NOT meet the main threat we face or get us closer to where we need to be).
GNXP – No, although if the definition of non-whites were limited to Negroes and Mexicans (no inclusion of Subcons or Orientals) they might be willing to make a compromise (i.e., agree to exclusion of Negro and Mex “cogelites” in return for acceptance of Subcon and Chinese ones — which we of course would reject).
Half Sigma – Dunno, I’ve never read this particular Jew. What little I’ve read of his attack on Peter Brimelow I find him narrow-minded, highly obnoxious, and anti-Eurochristian.
Dienekes – No. Dienekes, it turns out, is anti-Euro as a concept, which leads him to attempt to deny Euro-ism as a reality. He turns out to be a true dagoe complete with the typical dagoe resentment against more northerly peoples and the typical dagoe superficialness and narrow-mindedness. He’s interested solely in the Greek and Turkish races and apparently in finding a way to conceive of them as melded into one single race. This is all presumably because he himself has considerable Turkish blood, or is not certain he doesn’t have, or something like that. Must be something like that, otherwise where do these weird ideas of his come from. “Pontikos” means his familial origins lie in Turkey, not Greece proper. I never read him any more — I avoid his site totally and have done for about a year now. (I used to visit there regularly.) He’s worthless, a zero. Less than zero. For me he doesn’t exist.
By the way, if Prozium doesn’t see the Jews as a very big factor among the forces pushing race-replacement why does he support Jewish-Euro separation?
“This indicates to me that something else besides RR is driving WN. That’s what I am trying to articulate here.”
Yeah, many of ’em Proz are Zionists.
“What little I’ve read of his attack on Peter Brimelow” ( — my comment a couple above)
That was an attack, a typically Jewish one, on Brimelow, Sailer, and Vdare.com. It might as well have been Abe Foxman himself doing the attacking, it was so obnoxious, so sickening, and so Jewish.
::My starting point is the perception that I belong to a distinct group with interests that conflict with other groups.
I think the lefty rebuttal to this would be “fuck till we’re all one color.” I don’t see how this could fail to defuse racial tension. I also wouldn’t put it past the left to use heavy-handed measures to make sure it happened.
I know that you’re opposed to race-mixing regardless of its effect on racial tension, but the point is that this is no more an argument for WN than race realism is.
To all those who naïvely believe that Zionist (and philo-Khazarian) “RR”‘s can objectively (and honestly) work with US on behalf of White racial and ethnic interests, I say —
DON’T TRUST ANYTHING JEWS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT …WELL, ANYTHING!!!!!
*The Culture of Deceit*
“Recently arrested New Jersey rabbis, what one pundit called a “Culture of Corruption”
“In other words, illegal activities involving deception and deceit are tolerated within the Jewish community. The rabbi does not issue ringing condemnations of the money launderers and the human body parts sellers. Nor does he condemn his son for being involved in bank fraud. The only real crime is to inform on other Jews. The only ethical principle involved here is the age old “Is it good for the Jews?””
~ Edmund Connelly
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Connelly-Deceit.html
“I also insist on separation from Jews (solely because I see them as the main pushers of race-replacement and I don’t see that changing)” ( — my comment)
No that’s wrong, I went too fast, didn’t think. Jewish support for race-replacement isn’t the sole reason I support Euro-Jewish separation. There are others, all having to do with dogged attempts by the Jews to destroy Euro-race society: destroy its mores, destroy its traditions, destroy its high culture, etc.
Jewish support for race-replacement is the biggest reason, though.
All right, so I take back my question to Prozium inquiring into the reason he supports Jewish-Euro separation — presumably his reason is one of the other ones I just cited.
Prozium,
What do you think of this?
http://whiteamerica.us/index.php/articles/articles/the_logic_behind_liberalism/
The liberalism of Ian Jobling must be refuted.
“The Matrix is a system, Neo, and that system is our enemy. When you are inside, you look around, what do you see?
“Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people we are trying to save.
“But until we do, these people are part of that system and that makes them our enemies.
“You have to understand most of these people are not ready to be unplugged.
“And many are so…hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.”
” This indicates to me that something else besides RR is driving WN. That’s what I am trying to articulate here.”
The very real threat of demographic eclipse?!?!
Prozium you yourself have stated that Buchanans ‘Death of the West’ was one of the primary factors in your own awakening process!
Assuredly many White Nationalists do not articulate it in terms of the demographic situation (only 9% of the Worlds Population is White! We are literally an endangered species) but many can sort of ‘feel’ the ‘Rising Tide of Color’ as they have to interact with non-Whites more and more on a daily basis and find they dislike it. It is in fact a pretty simple case of ethno-centrism: it is just easier being around ones own kind! Nationalism of any type (including White Nationalism) is just ethno-centrism writ large. So the effects of demographic change and ethno-centric reaction would be my thoughts!
“I also wouldn’t put it past the left to use heavy-handed measures to make sure it happened.”
Who are the real authoritarians then?!?!? The Left like to paint the Far Right as being like that, but their schemes to re-make Human Nature are far more controlling!!
I don’t think anyone is saying that merely stating racial differences is going to save us.
I agree with your points, I just don’t draw the conclusion that race realism is worthless, nor that all race realists are of the same worth.
There’s a huge difference between a pro-white race realist like Jared Taylor, and a race realist that is a miscegenist. The latter seems to be very rare, as acknowledging the value of race and culture would naturally lead one to prefer their own.
Who is a prominent race realist that believes in miscegenation?
Who is a prominent race realist that believes in miscegenation?
J.P. Rushton, Charles Murray and John Derbyshire come to mind.
Yosemite,
Thanks for posting that link. I will definitely respond to Jobling’s post tomorrow.
The exact words from a coloured man, from South Africa’s ‘bad boy’ blog SA Sucks:
We dropped from 20% to 7% in, say, about 25 years. Our greatest enemies are NOT Jews or non-whites but WHITE elitists. Period. I want no arguments on this one, please. But you in The West will find this out in the years to come. Want to know your future? Watch the plight of us whites in South Africa.
(link tip for Admin: comments links are same color as text, hence rendering them unnoticable – possible color change?) Thank you for a lively and informative blog.
“J.P. Rushton, Charles Murray and John Derbyshire come to mind.” ( — Prozium)
I gather Rushton and Murray have Chinese wives? I know the Derb does.
That doesn’t mean any of them “believes in miscegenation.” When they married, the issues may not have been the same as now, or they might not have had the same ideas then as they have now, etc.
Murray married a Thai woman and had 2 kids with her. They divorced and then he married a Ms. Cox (also had 2 kids with her). He says he married the Thai woman to shock his parents. He also once burnt a cross. For anyone interested in Murray, this was a very good article about him in the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/magazine/daring-research-or-social-science-pornography-charles-murray.html?pagewanted=all
“To all those who naïvely believe that Zionist (and philo-Khazarian) “RR”’s can objectively (and honestly) work with US on behalf of White racial and ethnic interests, I say –”
DON’T TRUST ANYTHING JEWS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT …WELL, ANYTHING!!!!!
—
Right on!
___
KOL NIDRE ~ JEWISH PRAYER TO ABSOLVE VOWS
“ALL VOWS, OBLIGATIONS, OATHS OR ANTHEMS, PLEDGES OF ALL NAMES, WHICH WE HAVE VOWED, SWORN, DEVOTED, OR BOUND OURSELVES TO, FROM THIS DAY OF ATONEMENT, UNTIL THE NEXT DAY OF ATONEMENT (WHOSE ARRIVAL WE HOPE FOR IN HAPPINESS) WE REPENT, AFOREHAND, OF THEM ALL, THEY SHALL ALL BE DEEMED ABSOLVED, FORGIVEN, ANNULLED, VOID AND MADE OF NO EFFECT; THEY SHALL NOT BE BINDING, NOR HAVE ANY POWER; THE VOWS SHALL NOT BE RECKONED AS VOWS, THE OBLIGATIONS SHALL NOT BE OBLIGATORY,
NOR THE OATHS CONSIDERED AS OATHS.”
~ THE KOL NIDRE
http://newsfromthewest.blogspot.com/2009/07/kol-nidre-jewish-prayer-to-absolve-vows_23.html
I believe I now have a better understanding of your earlier post and you’ve made some very salient points. To wit, educated, upper class blacks are much more conscious of their racial identity and more likely to harbor hostility towards whites. The Obama’s are prime examples of this phenomena. Conversely, upper class whites seem to be the least racially conscious and champions of racial diversity.
Indeed some white RR’s tend to think all people with high I.Q’s, regardless of race, somehow have more in common with each other than with their less fortunate racial kinsmen. Many Amren posters at one time were smitten with Asians because of their intelligence and low crime rates. However, that’s not the sentiment shared by Jared Taylor who’s on record as saying he’s against non-white immigration even if the immigrants are smarter and better than we are.
Even though some RR’s arguments are pedestrian by a veteran WN’s standards they still serve a purpose. You have to walk before you can run, and most white people can barely walk when it comes to racial matters.
“To wit, educated, upper class blacks are much more conscious of their racial identity and more likely to harbor hostility towards whites. The Obama’s are prime examples of this phenomena.”
Actually, lower class blacks are JUST as conscious of their racial identity – the only difference is: they are less capable of expressing it in an effective political manner.
Race realism assumes as a superior race, preserving white numerical hegemony will benefit everyone and to a degree, our existence now rests on being useful to others. White existence is now rationalized as okay if it is universally good. Like tools for broader needs. We are human beings. Race realism and Usefulness implies a goal but human existence is without purpose or goals. I see no reason to surrender the existence of my race and then believe the continuation of general humanity is somehow different.
Rushton has never said that he “believes in miscegenation”. He is divorced and does not have a wife. His last wife was white.
Dienekes recently had a series of posts against multiracial societies. He is conductive to separatism and believes diversity and race-mixing brings tension.
“The emergence of ethnically homogeneous states in Europe since WWII has largely coincided with a cessation of war. Wars have continued only in parts of the Balkans and the Caucasus where different ethnic groups have to coincide within a political state.
The ideal system for world peace is a number of nation states each with a dominant ethnic majority.”
-Dienekes
I agree. There is no evidence of peaceful diversity or in the superiority of diversity. Multiracialism belongs in the same trash bin as IQ denialism-false and contrary to reality.
Deaver:“The emergence of ethnically homogeneous states in Europe since WWII has largely coincided with a cessation of war. Wars have continued only in parts of the Balkans and the Caucasus where different ethnic groups have to coincide within a political state.”
I am generally against pointless wars (especially if it involve intra-racial wars between various White nations, e.g. WWI, WWII, etc), but war holds an important place in human culture; perpetual peace leads to a degeneration of of the human stock living under those peaceful conditions. To quote Spengler on this:
Prozium,
RRs cite plenty of facts all right; facts which don’t lead to the conclusion that Whites should separate from non-Whites. Instead, countless hours are spent debating extraneous issues of no relevance to separatism.
It seems that way. But a case for separation certainly can derive from reason (ie “RR”). RRs err when they attempt to motivate others with the same.
Pacifism will remain an ideal, war a fact.
Or as Ice-T put it:
“My life is violent but violence is life,
Peace is a dream, reality is a knife.”
So strange that Spengler could write the above in the wake of the Great War. It’s hard to see how persistent warmongering did much for whites considering what was soon to come to pass. If war really is the answer one will struggle to find evidence for that proposition in the events of the 20th century.
“It’s hard to see how persistent warmongering did much for whites considering what was soon to come to pass. ”
If National Socialists hadn’t put a good dent in the Communist Machine there is a good chance ALL of Sacred Europa could have gone Commie!
Also there was a good chance Hitler might have won and things could have turned out different. There is no doubt in my mind we COULD be living in Francis Parker Yockeys Imperium.
If only different actions were to have been taken at Dunkirk or Stalingrad….