New York
That’s like asking: can the Rainbow Confederacy be saved?
“As a result, today the Episcopal Church looks roughly how Roman Catholicism would look if Pope Benedict XVI suddenly adopted every reform ever urged on the Vatican by liberal pundits and theologians. It still has priests and bishops, altars and stained-glass windows. But it is flexible to the point of indifference on dogma, friendly to sexual liberation in almost every form, willing to blend Christianity with other faiths, and eager to downplay theology entirely in favor of secular political causes.
Yet instead of attracting a younger, more open-minded demographic with these changes, the Episcopal Church’s dying has proceeded apace. . . .
But if conservative Christianity has often been compromised, liberal Christianity has simply collapsed. Practically every denomination — Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian — that has tried to adapt itself to contemporary liberal values has seen an Episcopal-style plunge in church attendance. Within the Catholic Church, too, the most progressive-minded religious orders have often failed to generate the vocations necessary to sustain themselves.”
The comments are a bloody goldmine. The aggression against an institution that built the Anglosphere is tangible. The first one is a classic in shadenfreud.
It mirrors the death of the Anglo Saxon in North America.
The NYT is dancing on the grave. Brookes, Douthat’s articles ought to signal an insurrection of some sort.
Maybe everyone got really really tired of hearing about a bunch of weird middle-eastern tribes from 5,000 years ago and listening to 2,000 years of the most boring, tedious, repetitious, mind-numbing , readings of paul’s letters to churches to places only like 1 outta 100 million even ever had the slightest clue as to where the churches were exactly. Only about 1 outta 200 million ever gave a shit enough to find out. I can’t say I blame them . It’s all so tedious. Nothing transcendant or inspiring about any of it. Lame comes to mind. Tired, lame, 5,000 year-old , weird middle-eastern tribes and old, tired & lame, sleep-inducing letters from paul and some from pete : Week in/Week out for 2,000 years. And miracle stories one has to shut one’s mind down to even listen to : let alone believe. No. I’m not a Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, New-Ager of any kind, Hippie, Radical, leftist, communist, fascist, neo-con, namby-pamby bleeding-heart liberal,etc.
Christianity died in WW2, in the rubble of Dresden : liberal christianity, conservative christianity, and every type of christianity in-between.
Anglicans were all about worshipping Albion. No mystery there. Something change.
The church has always been and can be nothing other than a patriarchal institution. They have to get back to that, and young men have to realize just how screwed as a group we are in general without such institutions.
Luckily for the church that will probably be the net effect of the evolutionary process that they are going through.
Anon,
Agreed a church is about communion with one another.
The stories might be fiction but they pale in comparison to the cameraderie to be had. it must be a patriarchy or else it’s just a funeral.
I tried to read the comments there, but the first several were all too stupid to bother with. I’ll read people who disagree with me, but not when their disagreement is based on the kind of cluelessness and shallowness of thought that I grew out of when I was 14.
Liberal Christianity is a contradiction in terms — Christianity without Christ, or at least without the things that Christ actually said. Oh sure, they have a handful of out-of-context Scripture verses they like to quote (“judge not lest ye be judged” is probably their favorite), but most of the Gospels are a real downer. Jesus walks around casting out demons left and right and telling people they’re most likely going to Hell. Half the parables are followed by something like, “And these words were hidden from those who heard, so that they did not understand.” He talks a lot more about flames and swords than peace and love, but you wouldn’t know that from listening to a liberal preacher every Sunday.
Once you accept the basic tenet of liberalism — I can decide right and wrong for myself — why would you stick with any particular church? Why be Episcopalian and have to pay for the stained glass and vestments when you can switch to some other “Christian” church that meets in a rented conference room, or at the park? Why be Catholic and be expected to kneel for a few minutes every Sunday? Why belong to a church at all, when you can just stay at home and do whatever praying you feel like doing? Once you discard the idea that there is a church that has authority over you, the only reason to keep attending is for the social interaction and charitable activities, and that (plus some inertia) is all that’s left in liberal churches.
Anon: “They have to get back to that, and young men have to realize just how screwed as a group we are in general without such institutions.”
I would argue that many young men have realized just how screwed up we are in general and that most modern churches are a waste of time, liberal or conservative. Most are churchians that are nothing but as Aaron said, stained glass and vestments. Conservatives just aren’t as far along as the liberals.
Aaron, I was about to write the same thing: “Liberal Christianity is a contradiction in terms — Christianity without Christ, or at least without the things that Christ actually said.” Christianity as such is not, cannot be, liberal.
At the root of all these problems, political, economic, demographic, etc. is immorality and apostasy.
IMO, any of the Americanized versions of Christianity will not survive. Any institution that has churches spending millions of dollars on sound and lighting equipment for “worship” services while professing to follow the teachings of Christ is living a contradiction.
Silence?
Also: “Conservatives just aren’t as far along as the liberals.” Even so-called conservative churches are not the Church. The false shepherds of the churches are responsible for much of the evil, but the Church alone can turn things around.
“Americanized versions of Christianity will not survive” — and even the Romanised version, I think, will perish someday.
Mosin,
What version do you think is the true version?
Meanwhile, as “open-minded, tolerant, diverse” pseudo-Christianity collapses, people seeking the real Christ and flocking to the Catholic Church in droves. The number of ex-Episcopalians being reconciled to the Church is unprecedented, especially with regard to former Anglican priests. The diocese of Fort Worth, Texas, for example, recently ordained six former Episcopalian priests at a single service, and similar situations can be found in Houston and in other U.S. ctities.
I don’t have any numbers, but I suspect the Orthodox Church is experiencing similar things. Real Sacraments mean the Real Presence, and for that there can be no substitute.
It’s important to distinguish between the infallible Catholic Church and the very fallible men and women who populate it. The Holy Ghost prevents our pope and the bishops in union with him from teaching error as truth when speaking on matters of faith, but It does not prevent them from presenting erroneous personal and political opinions as truth. Neither does God prevent our bishops from personal infidelity to God’s law. It’s a Church full of sinners (among whom I count myself), but it’s the one Christ left us, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
It won’t be much longer until a schism in the Church, however. In the near future the Church in the U.S. will split into two: one officially-sanctioned by the government and All The Right People, a nice “church” fully in line with diversity, tolerance, and open-mindedness; the other, a “hate group” in union with Rome. I’ll be among the “haters”.
There’s nothing for separating the wheat from the chaff like persecution.
When being a true Christian comes with a penalty, the fakers will melt away like ice under a blowtorch. Those that remain will be saints and martyrs.
The true sequence of events:
1. Churches were bleeding membership under the withering assault of modern science
2. After trying everything but liberalizing, they decided to liberalize in order to stem the bleeding
3. It didn’t work.
There is a bit of a phoney argument that I am sensing that
1. Churches were doing just fine
2. They Liberalized
3. Now they are in deep trouble
That just isn’t how it happened.
@ All Readers and Robert Oculus III
For some reason the holy spirit doesn’t stop the Popes of Rome from opening banks, practice usury , and hand out fiat -money : Google “Credito Artigiano” : the Vatican-Owned and Controlled Bank. Yes. The Catholic Church Is In The Banking Business [Big-Time] : A very corrupt and scandal-ridden bank, too boot. The holy spirit somehow doesn’t stop the catholic popes, bishops, cardinals, priests, and sundry catholic big-shots from getting involved in one banking scandal after another, Ad Nauseam.
The holy spirit doesn’t stop the catholic pope and his representatives
[ bishops, cardinals, priests, etc.] in Mexico from goading the Mexicans on to cross the border en-masse and Ad-Nauseam , and colonize the southwest USA. I could go on and on about how truly deep the Corruption is in The Church Of Rome. It would be a very long post. One could write a library of books about the subject.
The holy spirit doesn’t seem to have too much say in the affairs of the church of rome.
“What version do you think is the true version?”
Digressing slightly from the topic of this thread, I must answer: Those who actually live out the “red letters” (the precepts and ethic of Christ) proving they TRULY believe — forms of ceremonies and hierarchies notwithstanding.
Mosin:
Is the current Bible not Romanized? For me, the Council of Nicea have given me permanent doubt.
@ Afterthought: The controversy of evolutionary science is NOT the reason for liberalisation. One can be FULLY scriptural and also know and agree that the universe has existed for (at least) billions of years and Homo for (more or less) a million.
In the mainline denominations (or “ministers’ unions”) at least, the course of liberalisation was/is taken to maintain market share and safeguard the “union members'” positions or careers. Going with rather than against the flow of fallen human nature, saying nothing “too controversial” but only “nice” things, teaching whatever it appears most people want to believe is the safest and easiest course, in the short term.
I’m sorry, I thought your question was about what version of
Christianity, not what version of Bible.
There are many corruptions of scripture intentional or unintentional, ranging from serious to insignificant (“Cotton Patch Version” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Jordan somewhere on this continuum) and no perfect transmission (not even “King James”!) — but I would be digressing too far from the thread topic to go any further….
@Mosin Nagant
The overwhelming number of Catholics are nominal — if that even. It’s a place they go to get married and to hold funeral services. That’s about it. In the meantime, the vatican, along with the cardinals, bishops, and shitloads of priests all over the world , are corrupt. Corruption and nominal lip-service is the true real-world reality of the catholic church.
The bible is useless to the White race and should be thrown in the collective dumpster.
It’s been translated and re-translated so many times throughout history, every translation had an agenda behind it, it’s been rendered useless, if indeed it ever did have any kind of value at all.
Thanks Mosin, I’m sorry, I’m not a very good conversationalist. I did mean to say what version of Christianity, but I equate modern Christianity with the Bible of the Council of Nicea. So anything from that time on I view as corrupted. I’m just curious about your overall opinions and beliefs about Christianity.
liberal Christianity ie churchanity, cannot be saved. Churchanity turned it’s back on God and He has turned His back on them
Churchanity is PC, completely feminist/ feminized and anti White man. This is well documented and men have left the church in large numbers. This is also why I say WN, Southron Nationalist must never make an attempt to appeal to women. Once you do, things go weak and drive men away. Young boys exposed to that much anti White man venom won’t go back
Churhcanity’s birth rated sucks compared to the more traditional / orthodox churches. The catholic church is alive today because of the mexican invasion. I know a couple of White couples who were driven from local catholic churches because of it and soon it will no longer be a White man’s church at all.
UBL said something about when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, they automatically favor the strong horse. There is no strength in churchanity
The true faith is what it says in the Bible, and following to the best of ones strength, ability and understanding. Nothing more and nothing less. There is no way a man can be familiar with the Bible and be ok with churchanity
I’m not sold on that paradigm, since there was similar corruption before Nicaea, which was just one large step down — and further corruption and confusion will continue until the Day comes when all the tares or the chaff are separated from the good seed.
However, discussing this MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL subjects (since it concerns our ETERNAL destinies) at the full length it deserves here would DEFINITELY appear to ride hobby horse and to be hijacking the thread.
In any case, it’s time to shut down for tonight, time for sleep in this time zone.
“The true faith is what it says in the Bible, and following to the best of ones strength, ability and understanding. Nothing more and nothing less.” Excellent definition, Stonelifter. But some will object that the Bible says contradictory things, or argue over how much effort is enough, or whether it is necessary to do anything at all but to believe or receive a sacrament.
Time to close for the night.
I always thought hobby-horse playing was like a Occidental Dissent traditional. So many seem to play it all the time. I’ll have to ask [ + Fr John +] about the truth of the matter. I wouldn’t want to disturb Mosin, he’s reading his bible and saying his Sunday evening prayers.
Liberalism is a Revolutionary ideology condemned as an error by the Church. Those who would adhere to the holy faith can not adulterate it with liberalism.
Didn’t say it was easy, but often enough the contradictions aren’t contradictions when you understand the back ground of the story
“Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?”
Why would anyone want to?
Let the dead bury the dead.
Good riddance.
“The number of ex-Episcopalians being reconciled to the Church is unprecedented, especially with regard to former Anglican priests. The diocese of Fort Worth, Texas, for example, recently ordained six former Episcopalian priests at a single service, and similar situations can be found in Houston and in other U.S. ctities”- BLind Eye
Robert- that’s not what I am hearing, and I speak with fellow clerics all the time, all over the USA. Maybe Episcopals are poping over, but the majority of historic Anglicans (Male only priesthood, high church sacramentology, educated clergy) took one look at the ‘invitation’ from Rome, and said, “Uh-unh!”
An infallible church that changes its liturgy every forty years, is still suspect. No matter how much you may carp about ‘semper edeam.’ It’s nothing but BS.
And Joe, please take your Jewish views somewhere else.
@Fr John
I shall pack my talmud, noahide laws, speedos, and bermuda shorts in my trunk and head out tonight for Tahiti and hula girls dancing on the beach.
Before I go, could you please translate “semper edeam”. You seem to have a mental block about translating. How many times must we ask you to please translate into English any foreign word and phrase. Next thing you know, you’ll be writing complete posts in Latin and/or German. I would hate to see Hunter ban you for your obstinant recalcitrance concerning “OD” rules. Who would explain to me the difference between all those weird 5,000 year old middle-eastern tribes if you were to get banned for your obstinance to follow the house rule about translating foreign words and expressions into the English language so we can learn from your knowledge and religious acumen ?
Douthat is not a Catholic. He is an Episcopalian.
Huffington Post and many Anti-Catholic comments claim that the decline of Liberal Christianity is also a problem on Conservative Christianity. How WRONG.
Let me say something honest and clear here. The premise of Christianity and its survival has been its orthodoxy, as people want to preserve their moral traditions and not fight or bicker over the political mood of the day. Liberal churches like the Episcopalian may be American, open-minded and “inclusive”…. but this is a weakness because the lack of structured dogmas and beliefs make a LAZY Christianity. Suppose I’m an Episcopalian, and Christianity of all versions are accepted… why bother to go to church? Why bother to receive the sacraments? Who cares about following religious beliefs and traditions if I can be entitled to do my own way and my own version since there is no authority to govern or assert me.
I read another comment elsewhere that the reason why conservative Christianity will not decline as fast as Liberal Christianity is because Conservative-value Christians feel that passing their faith and moral traditions is an imperative in their family, while a liberal type of Christianity can be wishy-washy due to the lack of tradition/authoritarian beliefs. This makes sense.
Of course, the American Christianity in the United States will have its own schism. It’s already started. With the Catholicism in the U.S. being more preserved due to Non-Caucasian immigration and their traditional Catholic traditions/more conservative moral beliefs—-who wants to be with a liberal type of Christianity? It is as dispensable with NO clause on a conscience. Therein lies the difference.
I might be called a hater, ignorant, homophobic, non-inclusive etc. But I’d rather keep my traditions and “rigid” morality at the end of the day.
KUDOS to that one comment who said that Christ preached about Jesus, Hell, Demons and condemned many forms of sin… but of course you shall NEVER hear these things from the liberal Christian pulpit. It’s about endorsement and acceptance of ALL faiths, religion under a false distorted idea of Christian love, void of morals and void of set beliefs.
Rome has already encountered this type of heresy in her 2000 years. It isn’t new to the Church and the Popes who have experienced this time of apostasy.
Just want to re-post an intelligent comment I came across from that original article.
COMMENT:
“…….My family came from a long line of liberal Christians, Mr. Douthat. My great-grandparents were Catholics who became Congregationalists, my grandparents were Congregationalists who became Unitarian Universalists, my father was a Unitarian Universalist who became an atheist, my mother a Christian who became an agnostic, my sister and I are atheists who’ve adopted moral utilitarianism as the framework of our morality.
Since all of us were all raised in liberal households that encouraged open and individual thought, we came up with our own ideas, and now our younger members have come to the honest conclusion that God does not exist. We don’t believe you need religion to be a good person. You don”t need someone to tell you to a moral obligation to other people.
That Is Why liberal Christianity will die- liberals don’t need it. It’s problem is simple: no matter how accepting you are of homosexuals or women or other faiths, you won’t win over the growing number of people who don’t believe in a higher power. Conservatives, people who indoctrinate their children from a young age, will pass Christianity on to their children. That’s the great divide, between the religious and the non-religious.
Its about the property, pretty soon jews will be flocking into these congregations preaching “anti-racism” what else, and lo and behold those good locations the churches have downtown will be torn down for shopping malls.
I know of one Episcopal church that probably has a black minister and its property is in the business district of a decent if not spectacular town and it has any congregants it never shows. One day that prime retail location is gonna shine with a new building.
“(Y)ou won’t win over the growing number of people who don’t believe in a higher power.” However they do believe — in ghosts and the occult, “vibes” and ancient aliens. A vampire new religion would do well now.
“Conservatives, people who indoctrinate their children from a young age, will pass Christianity on to their children. That’s the great divide, between the religious and the non-religious.” It’s not indoctrination with a falsehood or error, but a gift of truth telling. Conservatives who do not conserve the true religion are in fact liberals — “liberated” and “liberating” from the truth. They will not come to the Light where their sin would be reproved.
“Huffington Post and many Anti-Catholic comments claim that the decline of Liberal Christianity is also a problem on Conservative Christianity. How WRONG.” Perhaps they refer NOT to the very small minority of TRUE conservatives but to the vast numbers of somewhat less liberal NOMINAL “conservatives” such as the Southern Baptists and other evangelicals — in which case I think they would be correct.
Nominally conservative contemporary evangelicalism is a white-washed tomb full of materialistic liberalism inside, proven by their divorce and sodomy statistics.
Does anyone know what “semper edeam” means ? Does it have something to do with the marines? They say semper something or another. Oh well. Maybe “edeam” means “eden” ?
Is “semper” latin for Sumter, perhaps? Is that like latin for the fort ? You know, the fort the southerners attacked on the orders of the foreigner Judah something or another. Oh yeah, Benjamin : The Jew -Southern hero* who packed his bags and skipped town [after the Yanquis** beat the crap out of the southerners] back to the Queen’s Court, the Queen’s Council, the Queen of England —>
Benjy-boy who was in the Queen’s employ ; On-The-Payroll : as “they” say in the rougher parts of New York shitty.
I hope Judah didn’t forget to pack his talmud as he Skipped Town to Run Back to Europe. I hope the pilgrims didn’t burn Judah’s talmud when the puritan devils took Richmond : I think that’s the night the puritans burned ole’ dixie down ; You know, the puritans, the ones who take every word in the bible for real : I think it’s called in Latin, taking every word in the bible “Litarale.”***
* Leaving Dixie and his goy boy-toy Elmore and even The Robert E Lee Himself in the smoky murky ruins kinda biblical in scope: the very panaroma of old-testamentism. The oldtestamentmites would have been proud. Too bad Moses wasn’t around to see it.
** The way our “Catholic” mexican immigrants : The ones the precious catholic church leaders like the pope, the cardinals, bishops and priests in mexico, Goads on the mexicans to invade, oops, excuse me, immigrate to the US pronounce, ” damn yankees.”
*** So stupid as to take every word in the bible for real: “Literally.”
Maybe this is what “semper edeam” means ? I don’t know. I can only speculate as there are those here at “OD” who remain quite obstinate and recalcitrant about following “OD” rules which call us to be considerate, and translate – into English– foreign words and expressions so All readers can participate in the discussion: Not only the self-proclaimed “chosen” ones****.
**** Rather cliquish , I dare say. Rather like being back at the club.
It’s in Bar Harbor . We have a family compound there.
Joe, please, do everyone a favor. Go back to Bar Harbor and stay there.
Your psychotic rants have gotten too tedious to read or care about.
I’ve rather grown tired of Bar Harbor. It’s so parochial. I’ll be summering in Tahiti. I rather thought to winter in Palm Beach this year. We have a place there. It’s where we
keep “the” yacht : “Auf jeden Fall”. By all means.
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/07/16/the-light-that-failed/
New numbers reveal that the collapse of the Episcopal Church dramatically accelerated in the last ten years. The denomination is literally falling apart, with attendance down 25% between 2000 and 2010.
For a link to the PDF file with the numbers, and for Rod Dreher’s comments on them, look here; but it’s important to note that the effect of these numbers on the life and the well being of local churches is even greater than the raw figures might suggest. . .
The numerical decline, bad as it is, matters less than the collapse in the moral authority of the church. The Episcopal Church has made many controversial pronouncements on social issues; at the latest General Convention the church declared that transgendered persons cannot automatically be barred from the priesthood. One can agree or disagree with some of these individual decisions, but what is striking over time is the decline in the moral weight of the church.
Maybe Christianity is withering due to it’s inherent falsehoods and contradictions? Or flat out denials of scientific, demonstrable truths? You know, just like Paganism? European Civilization kicks ass because of the White race. Is it that hard to grasp? Christ and Thor have nothing to do with it. Never did…never will. Unrestrained moral altruism coupled with a relative lack of racial loyalty landed us in this miasma. When these clash with enemy tribes disaster ensues. How many close calls have we had? Charles Martel almost failed to mobilize an army. Rome collapsed the same way America did….lack of we-feeling, uncontrolled immigration, corruption, egalitarian philosophy, the list goes on. Peter, Paul, and Mary ain’t gonna save us. Neither will Odin, Thor, and Tyr. Racism and elitism will.
A return to Biblical Christianity is the answer to Liberal Christianity
How Ironic will it be if Liberal Christianity falls while it’s archnemesis Christian Fundamentalism lives and thrives in the 21st century.