My latest contribution in the ongoing debate at VNN Forum over libertarianism.
The White man is complemented by tradition and experience. We’ve had a hundred years now to reflect upon our various mistakes in killing off so many of these species. In particular, we banned indiscriminate market hunting almost a century ago. We recognized that ecosystems are interconnected and stretch across private property lines. The federal government set aside 150 million acres of land as national wildlife refuges where threatened and endangered species have the space to recover.
Although there have been a few mistakes, the system has been a spectacular success. Many of these species have bounced back to such an extent (the white tail deer and wild turkey) that it is hard to believe they were ever seriously threatened. A whole industry has grown up around commercial exploitation of the turkey. Thanks to Madison Grant’s efforts, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and other Western states have a thriving tourism industry. Sportsmen have bountiful fish and game to pursue every hunting season. Significant parts of North America’s unspoiled natural wilderness was preserved for posterity. If that were not enough, tons of good, secure, high paying jobs were created in both government and the private sector.
In the name of the common good, a few limits were placed on individual liberty, property rights, and short term profits. Everyone benefited in the long term. T.R. held out hope that effete urbanized White males would get out into the wilderness and rediscover their manly virtues.
It is worth noting that the park system and wildlife management is one of the few enduring examples of America’s flirtation with illiberalism. At least when it comes to wildlife, liberals have come around to appreciating aesthetic preservationism, which is a small hop away from racialism. In Madison Grant’s case, there was no contradiction between wanting to preserve the magnificent American bison and the great American Nordic. The former logically led to the latter.
Here is where Lewpus comes into the picture. Out of fidelity to a liberal abstraction, to a principle untethered to history and experience, he would scrap the entire system of game laws, wildlife refuges, national parks, and international treaties that protect endangered species. He would send in the market hunters, stripminers, loggers, developers, and real estate speculators who would chew up everything in sight like a horde of locusts.
After they get done milking these areas for every natural resource, they would bulldoze and pave over everything, build highway strips and collector highways clogged with automobiles and dotted with fast food shacks, muffler shops, chain hotels and big box stores, all of which would service cookie cutter suburban McMansions sprawling out into the decimated countryside. A cheap labor force of non-White helots would be imported to flip cheeseburgers and mow lawns.
Do entire species have to die for bourgeois women can decorate their hats with a few colorful feathers or for hog feed and fertilizer to be a few cents cheaper? The racialist in me recoils from such a prospect. If the state happens to be against that sort of thing, then I am for the state, at least on this one issue.
The state is only a problem when in the hands of our enemies. That fact doesn’t get through to Linder. He can’t imagine a White state that promotes our interests.
The state, like a gun, by itself is neither good or bad. It depends on who’s using it and for what purpose.
There’s nothing wrong with using nature and animals in a controlled manner. We just don’t need irresponsible and uncontrolled exploitation.
Nature devours its own too. Let’s keep in mind that 99% of Earth’s species have become extinct. And extinctions can be positive, without extinctions humans wouldn’t be here.
“It is worth noting that the park system and wildlife management is one of the few enduring examples of America’s flirtation with illiberalism.”
You’re not saying that protection of the environment is liberal, are you? Conservation is strictly a conservative idea, though popular labels in America were twisted around. It is liberalism, radical individualism, that destroys the commons.
Oops, tut mir leid, I misread: illiberalism. Ich kann heute nicht lesen.
Back to the revolutionary struggle on the ground…if white nationalists are looking for some unlikely allies, the environmental left could be made to be receptive.
Pentti Linkola is worthy of close attention:
Fan site:
http://www.penttilinkola.com/
He makes far more sense to me than Lewpus. Besides foreign policy, Lewpus is worthless.
Linkola is crazy. As are you these days.
The poet Robinson Jeffers was known for an outlook he called “Unhumanism” that saw people as second in importance to nature. Accused of being a misanthrope, he claimed that Unhumanism was not a form of misanthropy. Linkola reminds me of Jeffers.
I’ve been following the debate over at VNN. Good stuff.
I’m a former libertarian myself and was very active in libertarian circles back in the days of my misspent youth. There is probably not a libertarian argument out there that I haven’t heard or made. I lived and breathed the stuff…until I thought my way out of it.
Linder is making some decent points over there (same points I used to make), but he presumes that those who disagree with him are ignorant and brainwashed. The libertarian typically believes himself to be misunderstood, or faced with an opponent who has some sort of character defect. Well, no doubt this is true in some cases. But eventually the libertarian is just gonna have to accept that there are plenty of intelligent, informed people out there that simply, well, reject libertarianism.
Let’s take an example. It’s an all white state. No Jews, no non-whites of any kind. In this all white state, there is a sleepy little burg. Quaint main street, sleepy residential houses surrounding it. In to this rustic scene comes Disco Stu. He’s white. Disco Stu purchases/rents some nice digs in the middle of Main Street, and decides to open a Brothel/Heroin Emporium. Hey, it’s his land! He’s got rights!
Normal white Americans would, most of them anyway, reject this. Sorry Disco Stu!! They would understand the concept of externalities. Maybe not intellectually, maybe they couldn’t articulate it very well, but the “brainwashed” normal whites could understand that what Disco Stu was trying to do would have an enormous impact on their town. That’s a recognition of externalities, something the libertarian will of course ignore.
By having a Brothel/Heroin emporium in the middle fo their little Main Street, the character, culture and tone of the burg would be massively changed. Johns and addicts coming and going at all hours (why shouldn’t it be open 24 hours a day? says the libertarian). Not to mention the attempt of this “businessman” to lure vulnerable and desperate women into a life that will almost certainly destroy them…leaving the town with the detritus of addicts and scumbags that are, ironically, no longer able to support themselves through productive labor. Child abandonment goes up, creating another burden for the community, whether the assistance be public or private in nature. Gainful employment goes down, and so forth. All sorts of ripple effects emanate from Disco Stu’s “legitimate business” and his exercise of property rights.
All of the above is just peachy keen by libertarian lights. They completely ignore secondary and tertiary effects. Libertarians seem almost willfully ignorant of EXTERNALITIES, whether those be the positive externalities of certain public investments or the negative externalities of certain private behaviors.
The libertarian will counter with “Well, you can make this stuff illegal, but you aren’t really getting rid of it. Government can’t solve the problem.”
There is a gain of truth here, but also a load of bullshit. No, in our example, making it illegal won’t end drug abuse or prostitution. But it can, and this is the key, marginalize these behaviors. It can prevent them from taking center stage, whether physically on Main Street or culturally in a broader sense. It can also raise the cost of engaging in these marginal activities. Doesn’t libertarian theory play up the idea that if you raise the cost of something (like taxing income) you’ll get less of it, but if you subsidize something (like welfare bum behavior) you’ll get more of it? Of course libertarians say that, and they are correct. But then they propose to, in effect, lower the cost of engaging in destructive behaviors…and it’s crickets chirping time. Lowering the cost of heroin or of entering prostitution? They aren’t honest enough to admit that this will, by their own logic of incentives, lead to MORE of these destructive behaviors.
Just it admist it, libs. Be honest.
But they never do. Again, it’s crickets chirping. Cherry picking and rank hypocrisy – it’s the libertarian way.
In that way, libertarians are intellectually dishonest. They ignore externalities, whether positive or negative. And then they make a big deal of incentives (government raising or lowering the costs of engaging in a given activity) only when it suits them, and the sounds of silence when it doesn’t.
These are just a couple of MANY, MANY flaws in libertarian thinking. There is far more. I could write a book, hell, a series of books dealing with this issue and still not scratch the surface. Libertarianism is a fundamentally superficial and ridiculous philosophy…but one that happens to be right about a lot of things. How is this? Well, easy. The libertarian always gives the same answer: “Government should not interfere.” This answer is given regardless of the question asked. All analysis is based on this predetermined conclusion, which means it’s not really analysis at all – or at least it’s not honest analysis. The libertarian always knows his answer before he even looks at the facts. No government.
But still, if your answer is always “no government intervention,” you’re bound to be right a lot. In much the way that a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Libertarianism gives us nothing but a few short decades of affluence. In exchange, and because of this affluence and the pursuit thereof, our birth rates plummet, and as indicated, the natural world is ravaged to no end.
As a side effect of declining birth rates combined with our affluence, the Have Nots all want to come join the party in all their endless millions. We call that Third World immigration.
Be sure to check out the thread over there. I’ve posted quite a few more responses.
“Nordmacht
Linkola is crazy. As are you these days.”
You call him names because he offends your bourgeois sensibility. He’s a revolutionary and prophet of the highest order. He’s a deep thinker who has thought through his positions. He makes a great deal of sense. Overpopulation is the source of all of our ecological and social problems. What do you think happens to a great quantity of rats packed in a small space? They start fighting and eating each other. Ditto for humans: wars, famines, ecological degradation. As to his eugenics, it’s the most logical and beneficial program for mankind. Only a sentimental liberal fool can object to the elimination of the insane and moronic. What would the world lose by killing off such useless eaters and human weeds? Better yet, sterilizations of carriers of defective genes and the screening of fetuses is highly desirable. Forced abortions if the mothers cannot see that giving birth to a defective is immoral and a threat to societal well-being. Nothing libertarian about eugenics either. To bring my order into fruition we would need to completely abolish Christianity as we currently know it (that religion for losers) and extirpate the disease of liberalism. Then and only then will we produce a radically new man and a radiant new society.
Killing “unfit” people, whatever that means, and denying people procreation unless they have a license is ridiculous. It’s also unnecessary.
The bigger struggle is getting intelligent people to have more children.
“He advocates the extinction of cats, minks and some other species in Finland that he considers as foreign and destructive to the Finnish nature.
He has suggested that big cities should be attacked with nuclear weapons. Linkola has described humans as the cancer of nature.”
This is your hero, Braun?
I’m no longer 12 and I don’t have “heroes”. I obviously don’t subscribe to anyone’s program 100% of the time. I pick and choose what I think is good. His thoughts on reducing the world’s population and on eugenics are remarkable. I do find many of his ideas worthy of careful study, but I find the ideas of many, many others worthy of attention without subscribing to everything they ever said or wrote. I find the New Right’s criticism of liberalism and capitalism very good, but they’re worthless on race. I pick and choose and form my own worldview.
“What would the world lose by killing off such useless eaters and human weeds?”
So I take it you wouldn’t object to carrying out Linder’s recommendation of exterminating the Jews, with the exception of your now paramour Avigdor Lieberman of course.
“He advocates the extinction of cats, minks and some other species in Finland that he considers as foreign and destructive to the Finnish nature.
He has suggested that big cities should be attacked with nuclear weapons. Linkola has described humans as the cancer of nature.”
Someone ought to shoot Linkola between the eyes.
From reading some of his writings it seems clear he would rather see a person killed than a tree cut down.
His idea is every family should have only one child. Well whites are already doing that, below replacement level.
Overpopulation is a real problem in the third world. Let’s start the depopulation programs there first and see how it goes.
“First thing to do on the cabin’s doorstep is the necessary look around: how does Pentti Linkola, the most insisting of the insisting, live?
In the wall of the old ladies’ man reads: “Fishermen have bigger rods.””
LOL, that’s something I expect to see in some redneck’s house.
I wonder if he has that singing fish? 🙂
“The bedroom has walls full of books. Next to the bed is open Eero Paloheimo’s Tämä on Afrikka [“This is Africa”]. Linkola thinks it’s witless that African “nappy heads” are allowed entrance in Finland. Even the foreign aid should be limited to contraception education.”
Okay, I’m with him on that one.
I agree that repopulation of the Third World is a very welcome idea. That’s where it should start. It’s not even a racial question. That’s where the teeming masses reside. Of course, total expulsion of non-Whites from the White biosphere should proceed at the same time as depopulatipn measures in the Third World. Southern Africa also should be depopulated of its Negroes, as it’s part of the White biosphere. All in all perhaps half a billion non-whites might be left once a depopulatipn program is completed. These folks should be kept in menial occupationd and only educated enough to count to one hundred and able to read road signs. It’s their natural station in life anyways. The elimination of mongrels should be a top priority as these are the most dangerous elements to the White power structure.
The words “far-left/far-right synthesis” come to mind. Good stuff.
Most of humanity IS worthless. Don’t pull out the retarded non-sense about Linkola needing to kill himself – who is the bigger problem: the urban lemmings or the fishermen-philosophers living off the Earth?
One can make a qualitative judgment about individual humans and their inherent worth or lackthereof; we’re NOT equal, even among our own races.
Its amazing how many racialists are actually hardcore enlightenment liberals with a deep herd instinct at heart. We have a LONG way to go, even among ourselves! Overmen you are all NOT.
Overmen you are all NOT.
Eco-faggotry doesn’t make you an “Overman”, either. It just labels you as an unserious person to be ignored.
“Overmen you are all NOT.”
Take a deep breath Donny, and put that nitrogen tablet under your tongue; I was kidding, well sorta. Linkola is half sage, half vicious kook, okay, I’ll go that far. But then again, as Wintermute observed in the case of Apollonian – in between bouts of reminding Tanstaalf to eat one of those giant chocolate chip cookies and to drink a warm glass of milk before getting at least eight hours of sleep – “trolls” and “mental defectives” tend to discredit our “movement”, such as it is, in the minds of bourgeois lemmings. Mumbling to one’s self about the “overman” just might qualify.
Only a cretin thinks that nature preservation is for “faggots.”
80% of whites are as useless as any mud, except they might be better at taking orders. Our own race is in need of serious cleansing, when the time comes.
Good comment #25 Friedrich Braun. WNism leads to nature conservationsm, or is it the other way round? Or, simultaneously?
” Thanks to Madison Grant’s efforts, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and other Western states have a thriving tourism industry.”
Yes and it is important to remind the liberal left enviromentalists of Grants efforts and Grants positions on Race! Also remind them of Margaret Sanger when one is at it! ‘See, Racialists can be smart!’
” Back to the revolutionary struggle on the ground…if white nationalists are looking for some unlikely allies, the environmental left could be made to be receptive.”
Yes. Enviromentalist meetings usually have the same demographic make-up as a meeting of the Aryan Nations!
Indeed on the very fringe there has been some inter-mingling of the two. Out here in the Pacific North West it is known that some in the Enviromental Liberation Front movement (that utilizes ‘direct action’) are in fact racialist and dislike mestizo immigration into ‘Ecotopia’
Also if one recalls Savitri Devi was a pretty hard-core enviromentalist, animal-rights activist, and an advocate for ‘thinning the population’. There are some on the Right we can look up too!
I’ve long noticed that the people in WN who have the most extreme views(like openly advocating mass murder and genocide) are often also the ones who have the hardest time giving up their devotion to conservative/libertarian ideology. If the two tendencies have anything in common, it’s that they are anti-pragmatic.
I’ve read everything Linkola has written, in his native language. I dare suggest that I have a better grasp on what this lunatic believes than Mr. Braun here. He’s nuttier than squirrel poo. Linkola is a man who lost his mind a long time ago, if he had one to begin with. He’s not a racialist. He wants to kill off humanity.
Nordmacht, do you think that the life of the human animal is “sacred”?
testing
Nordmacht claims he has a “better” grasp on Linkola yet he offers no actual analysis, just childish invective.
Racialism is full of humanist half-wits.
That’s one thing that bugs me about the ethnostate idea, packing all extant Whites into one region would not do wonders for the environment. Better for one region to secede with only as many Whites as it had in it, kick out all non-Whites and later attempt to get other Whites to follow course in their respective regions.
“Nordmacht
I’ve read everything Linkola has written, in his native language. I dare suggest that I have a better grasp on what this lunatic believes than Mr. Braun here. He’s nuttier than squirrel poo. Linkola is a man who lost his mind a long time ago, if he had one to begin with. He’s not a racialist. He wants to kill off humanity.”
He’s a man with no power, so all he has is his voice, one that he must use in an extreme way to catch people’s attention.
His writings may be more interesting in his native language, but in English it’s very boring.
From what I read of him I’d have to agree with you, he’s not a racialist, though he’s not afraid to speak against non-whites. His criticism is most extreme for his own people. He regards the Finns as the most decadent and worst abusers of nature.
It seems that many people who claim to be racialists or white nationalists are really misanthropes.
36: What’s the point of creating an ethnostate in North America and then just letting everyone “white” in, regardless of quality? I’d rather not live with Irish, Slavs, and white people under 115 IQ, does that mean I’m a racist? It will be high quality people who have the means to establish their own state anyway, and I hope they kick out all the trailer trash, drones, and filth in the area before they do.
Anthony: Keep this mathematical truism in mind: half the population falls below the mean.
This includes whites. A white ethnostate needs normal and below-normal people to function more than it needs high-IQ individuals. Unless you want rocket scientists and neurosurgeons to take shifts stocking shelves or mopping floors at the grocery store, or pumping their own septic tanks, we need to have people to do those mundane and/or disgusting tasks.
Most of the eggheads I meet at the universities are cosmopolitan liberals anyway. Would you rather live in an exclusive community of aggressive, high-IQ Asians, Jews, Indians, and liberal whites — or an all-white community that includes the entirety of the intelligence bell-curve?
Braun: no, all humans are not sacred. The ones with the best genetics however, are.
Donald: There is nothing to analyze. Linkola wants to kill you. Literally. I’ve talked with the man to some extent, and this is what he told me.
Mark: Linkola wants to erase civilization. That’s about it. Finland’s waste waters for example are the cleanest in North Europe. We are even assisting the Russians in cleaning up the toxic waste they let into the Gulf of Finland from St. Petersburg. We replace the forests we cut down. Linkola is a man who wants to erase humankind from this planet. If you agree with this premise, then you are on his side. If you don’t think everyone, including yourself, should be killed, you have no reason to defend Linkola.
Just so there is no confusion, I am different from the Anthony who posted above and whose posts I tend to find obnoxious.
“I’d rather not live with Irish, Slavs, and white people under 115 IQ,”
I wish it were that easy, but this particular slice of life ain’t like selecting the toppings on a pizza. The formation of any ethnostate on the North American continent will be opportunistic, and likely the result of much bloodshed, if achieved. From the perspective of homogeneity, fortunately, different White ethnicities tend to coalesce in different regions, because realistically, whatever region manages to break off will have to make do with the people on hand.
Love your post, Mike (#39)!
But it isn’t a question of “wanting” rocket scientists and neurosurgeons to do menial/disgusting labor. They couldn’t do such necessary tasks in the first place, most of them, so useless are they where these kinds of important (though low-IQ) activities are concerned. These folks are so high maintenance it’s pathetic.
Come to think of it, I could happily live without those 2 particular occupations you mention, but I sure don’t want our own, or our neighbors’, septic systems getting plugged. 🙂
An all-white community that includes the entirety of the intelligence bell-curve.
“Mark: Linkola wants to erase civilization. That’s about it. Finland’s waste waters for example are the cleanest in North Europe. We are even assisting the Russians in cleaning up the toxic waste they let into the Gulf of Finland from St. Petersburg. We replace the forests we cut down. Linkola is a man who wants to erase humankind from this planet. If you agree with this premise, then you are on his side. If you don’t think everyone, including yourself, should be killed, you have no reason to defend Linkola.”
I find it odd that you think I’m defending him when I said I agreed with you and made no defense of the man.
He appears to be serious, not sarcastic, so one can only conclude that he is a sociopath.
He wants to completely destroy modern civilization, he doesn’t even want to use electricity.
He wants the world to be ruled by a dictator.
He doesn’t want to kill all humans, just the vast majority, leaving no more than 500 million worldwide.
Anyway, there’s no real point to arguing the details of insane people.
The IQ reductionists are lame. There is much more to people than merely IQ.
We should select for race, intelligence, behavior, beauty and athleticism.
You know what, people already do that naturally. We just need a government and media that aren’t hostile to our natural inclinations.
Mark, we also need to select for ability to do shitwork. See Posts 39 & 43 above.
Athleticism? I don’t know for sure about that particular quality. Lots of populations over the millenia could do hard work 12 hours a day or as necessary, and it was productive work, into old age, without their necessarily being athletic. My parents, for example. Just in good physical shape and with lots of stamina.
You may enjoy being able to do the triathlon or high jump, or enjoy knowing that others can do it, but I am not sure it would be something I’d consider a good thing. I do think that athletes tend to be neurotic, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic.
“An all-white community that includes the entirety of the intelligence bell-curve.”
We part company. I want to produce a White society that is intelligent and healthy. That is why I’m a eugenicist by inclination. Why would you want to live among low I.Q. types? We know that these people are highly dysfunctional in all sorts of ways, so it’s not only a question of living among dumb people. I’d go even further, I want beautiful people, too. My sense of aesthetic tends towards the light blond and blue-eyed types. So in my utopia everyone is healthy, strong, athletic, intelligent, and Nordic.
Friedrich: So, you want your beautiful, blue-eyed blond-haired 115 IQ Nords to do gruntwork that may be physically or medically unhealthy? That doesn’t sound like something befitting your racial ideal. But of course you admit in your post that it is a “utopia,” so it’s really not feasible at all.
Remember in Huxley’s Brave New World where Mustapha Mond tells John that the World Controllers had tried to build a society made up solely of Alphas, and that it collapsed spectacularly? I have a feeling that if the same thing is tried in the real world, it would happen that way as well.
Mandatory selective breeding in a white ethnostate can keep the IQ of the left half of the bell curve from falling off of the cliff and unionizing low-IQ workers in the service industries will make sure that the jobs are filled and the workers relatively content with their lot in life.
” Athleticism? I don’t know for sure about that particular quality.”
Athletic types in a hypothetical ethno-state (‘Northwest Republic’) would be needed in military and para-military service! There will always be a need for infantry types to ‘put boots on the ground’.
” My sense of aesthetic tends towards the light blond and blue-eyed types. ”
Thats nice and Nordicism has its merits worthy of discussion, but not everyone has the same view-points. For example I myself am a Blond Norwegian, but have a preference for Brunettes!
(Luckily on the Far Right there are Racialist Ideologues who have supported such things:
“Evola held that the physical mixture of races, particularly between Aryans and races that were ‘alien’ (i.e., non-Aryan), was always hazardous — but mixture between ‘related’ races might produce hybrid vigor. “)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola#Race
I have a lot of respect for Evola and Mishima on politics but I won’t take pointers on race from a Sicilian or Japanese.