At Imagine 2050, an anti-racist activist notes the difference between old fashioned white supremacy and White Nationalism. I respond:
I would only dispute the third criterion. White Nationalists don’t necessarily believe that non-Whites are racially and culturally inferior.
Most WNs admire Japan and consider it a model worth imitating. I believe Japan is superior to the United States in almost every way.
Here’s a more accurate list of our key beliefs:
1.) We want to create a White ethnostate in North America. Race would be the basis of citizenship in this republic. All non-Whites would be excluded.
2.) We believe multiracial societies are inherently unstable. Racial diversity is strongly related to social fragmentation. See Robert Putnam’s research. We would rather live in tight knit, homogeneous communities than diverse ones.
3.) We don’t believe in racial or cultural equality. Instead, we believe in a spectrum of racial and cultural differences.
4.) We believe Jews should be excluded from our proposed White ethnostate. For various reasons, their inclusion would be detrimental to our racial ideals.
White Advocate,
While I respect the work Amren has done, I feel it is also highly hypocritical. The quotation in Amren’s banner says, “There is not a truth existing which I fear or would wish unknown to the whole world.” Why then does Amren silence any discussion about Jewish influence in Western decline? Why did Jews comprise 4/10 speakers at the first Amren conference?
The Jews already have their own country and spend a good deal of money manipulating ours. Why should we let them into our movement?
“Why did Jews comprise 4/10 speakers at the first Amren conference?”
Probably because he found a few pro-white Jews willing to speak. Also, he think that if he brings Jews into the movement it will grow faster. This strategy certainly hasn’t hurt, but admittidly hasn’t helped as much as one would have hoped. There are a lot of Jews who appreciate being able to live among whites, and are against affirmative action, minority crime, immigration and political correctness. But surprise, surprise, not many of them are willing to break bread with people who want to forcibly repatriate them to Israel or Birobidzhan (Lady Michele Renouf’s preference).
That’s why I’m for the strategy of reserving the right to criticize Jewish behavior while making clear that pro-white Jews are welcome to the movement. Many Jews dislike the former, many anti-Semites have a hard time accepting the latter. Tough shit for both of you. There is too much at stake.
“The Jews already have their own country and spend a good deal of money manipulating ours. Why should we let them into our movement?”
Because from a tactical standpoint they are here, and they have extensive property and tremendous power and influence. Why wouldn’t you prefer to have them if possible as allies rather than enemies, assuming there is a basis for such an alliance, and you don’t have to sacrifice your most important principles?
Also known as blame the victim. What you’re arguing amounts to: “Let us be part of your nation, or else.” No, thanks. You apparently aren’t familiar with US history. Jews were not excluded from the US and that didn’t stop them from being anti-White.
In which world is this happening? Every jew I’ve encountered who claims to be “pro-white” actually turns out to be more pro-jewish than anything else. Some of them see Whites as a group to exploit for their own purposes, once those troublesome “anti-semites” are purged.
Excuse me, but your handle is wrong. It should be Jew Advocate.
“There are a lot of Jews who appreciate being able to live among whites, and are against affirmative action, minority crime, immigration and political correctness.”
There are precious few Jews who will act within their own community to restrain their brethren.
“But surprise, surprise, not many of them are willing to break bread with people who want to forcibly repatriate them to Israel or Birobidzhan (Lady Michele Renouf’s preference).”
It could be worse, Linder favors vertical expulsion.
“That’s why I’m for the strategy of reserving the right to criticize Jewish behavior while making clear that pro-white Jews are welcome to the movement.”
Jews are welcome to speak out for the interests of European-derived people.
“Many Jews dislike the former,”
Jews certainly do bulk at criticism, from the , er, goyim.
“Because from a tactical standpoint they are here, and they have extensive property and tremendous power and influence.”
Most likely they’d have to give some of that up, but it beats expulsion. Don’t it?
“Why wouldn’t you prefer to have them if possible as allies rather than enemies, assuming there is a basis for such an alliance, and you don’t have to sacrifice your most important principles?”
Attention Jews: You will show loyalty commensurate with the loyalty White Americans have shown you in recent decades, or you will be expelled. Line. Sand. Drawn.
Because from a tactical standpoint they are here, and they have extensive property and tremendous power and influence.
From a tactical standpoint, if you believe that the assistance of Jewish power and influence is absolutely necessary for any progress, then would you agree that the desirable strategy would be to use them to meet specific, defined objectives and then promptly stripping them of their power and influence and removing them from society?
White Advocate,
Would I prefer to have ideological allies in the Jewish community? Of course. Unfortunately, the Jews with power and influence are precisely those who fight us the most. It’s not worth it to pander to the few exceptions by refusing to discuss the overall Jewish problem.
Additionally, the very fact that many Jews are wealthy and powerful indicates that they will be able to ride out the decline of the West in secure neighborhoods and gated communities. This situation is reflected by many non-Jews in positions of power as well. Why would they support us when they can simply avoid the problem that the working and middle classes have to face every day?
White (*cough*) Advocate, as much shit as you guys like to give Tanstaafl, he is genuinely committed to ‘fairness’, ‘reasonableness’, ‘giving a guy a fair shake’ and the like. In other words, engaging the Jew with equal duplicity and ruthlessness is beneath him. Is it beneath me? Not for a second. Not with the stakes so high, and the terms of engagement nearly, completely solidified. Push hard enough, long enough, and it won’t be men like Tanstaafl who settle the matter.
“Why wouldn’t you prefer to have them if possible as allies rather than enemies, assuming there is a basis for such an alliance, and you don’t have to sacrifice your most important principles?”
What if ones most important principle is to oppose Organized Jewry, though?
Believe me there is more then enough reason too: USS Liberty, Jonathan Pollard, Bernard Madoff, murder of Rachel Corrie…
Chances are Whites are going to be finished anyways so why not go down fighting!
Additionally, the very fact that many Jews are wealthy and powerful indicates that they will be able to ride out the decline of the West in secure neighborhoods and gated communities.
Not only ride out the decline, but opportunistically seek out new hosts and allies in advance:
“”The fear expressed that “a real decline of the West, particularly the United States, would have dramatic consequences for the Jewish people,” also led to controversy. Brandeis University president Jehuda Reinharz agreed that this type of decline can be expected “in the coming two decades” – but Stuart Eisenstadt was less emphatic about it. He believes the United States will remain the leading power. In all events, it was agreed the Jews “should strengthen cultural links with non-Western civilizations, particularly China and also India,” powers that are on the ascent. This is not a question of preference or closeness; it is a question of survival, of readiness for the future. How should this be done? That will have to be the topic of discussion in the next gatherings already being planned.”
As this quote shows, many Jews are completely cognizant of Western decline – yet their major concerns are the “dramatic consequences for the Jewish people.” And their reaction to it is to try to forge links and look for new potential hosts on the other side of the globe. Not just any hosts and allies, mind you. But those that are probably the biggest potential challengers, competitors, threats, etc., to the US and the West in the coming decades. Any self-respecting man who had a friend that behaved in this slimy manner would not continue such a friendship for long.
The Monitor writes:
“Anti-racists” are clearly freaked by crowds of working, tax-paying Whites shouting “We want our country back!”
That’s because they aren’t “anti-racist”, they’re anti-White.
In other words, engaging the Jew with equal duplicity and ruthlessness is beneath him. Is it beneath me? Not for a second.
Commendable sentiments, Captain!
(Which duplicities did you have in mind, BTW?)
White Advocate:
I’m simply arguing that Jewish support for anti-white politics was made worse by anti-semites who refuse to accept them as whites under any circumstances.
Jews aren’t white so it’s our stubborn attachment to reality that’s making things worse. Letting jews inside the tent wouldn’t make them less hostile to white interests. It’s been tried many times and in every case, whether it was the Chicago school jews at National Review or the neocons in the Republican party, the jews have used their influence to help jews and harm whites.
Also, anti-jewish movements didn’t start because jews were advocating open borders. They started because of jewish crime, jewish business practices and jewish rudeness. In the days of communism most jewish politics was just organized crime. If jews dropped their anti-white positions they would still be a race of criminals and whites, absent the propaganda and legal sanctions protecting jews, would quickly organize to expel them or worse.
As Linder says, jews control the media because they have to.
“Which duplicities did you have in mind,”
One comes to mind at the moment, though not original: We egg on the Jews to push ever harder to vitiate the First Amendment. Then, we protest loudly after it has happened, pointing to its disconsonance with our over 200 year tradition of free speech; and name those responsible. It is stark, glaringly contradictions like that with the professed universal ideals of the Jews and their behavior which stand a good chance of waking people. Of course, most of us would probably favor some censorship to limit the corrosive influence of media on our people. We would indeed censor media, and produce edifying propaganda consistent with our interests, just as the Jews do. So really, a universal standard of ‘fairness’ has nothing to do with it – however much that may disappoint Tanstaafl.
Wow….with the exception of Sam Davidson, you guys are really over the top.
Just answer me this one question: based on what I’ve been advocating here, does it make any difference to any of you as far as your judgment of me and my future in your ethnostate is concerned, whether these views are based on the fact that I have a Jewish father; or, alternatively, that I’m fully Aryan but the mother of my child, my ex-wife, is half-Jewish (on her father’s side); or, that instead I’m a full Aryan who happens to have a very close Jewish friend. Am I correct in presuming that if the true reason is the first possibity, then I’m not white and not welcome in your ethnostate because I am genetically compelled to be an anti-white asshole. But if its the second or third possibility, then I’m still white and potentially welcome (and what about my quarter-Jew kid?), because my misguided views are simply the result of miseducation and unfortunate life experiences?
I guess my larger point is that arbitrary race based judgments of individuals, as opposed to groups, is unfair. Also stupid — you’re driving away potentially allies.
Let me make one final point. Fundamentally, the view of many people who insist on a all-white, mongrel free, Jew free ethnostate in west Saskatchewan or some place is that the white race is extraordinarily weak. Like that immune-suppressed Boy in the Bubble, whites supposedly are at risk in extinction in a country as a result of one tiny group making up just 2% of population, a country in which the demographics — with whites signified by the dark hues — are like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_2000_white_percent.gif
Now if that’s not a favorable environment, what is? Perhaps a people too miserably weak to survive under such conditions, doesn’t deserve to?
A trusted friend informed me a few days ago that “White Advocate” is Jewish. I’ve been offline and haven’t gotten around to dealing with the matter.
P.S. For the ‘fair’ and the ‘reasonable’, libertarianism has a certain attraction, but this only betrays their absence of a stomach for intranational and international realpolitik. When your enemies are attempting to exterminate you, the gloves come off, when your people have culturally degenerated to the point they no longer care for their own survival, all the glittering, ostensibly high-flown concepts of liberalism go out the window. Survival of the group is ultimately all.
Circumcised Advocate, speaking for myself, the ethnostate is merely an intermediary step, and a pretext, leading up to eventual total reconquest of the North American continent. It goes to that ‘fairness’ hang-up so many of our fellow goys have. Of course, any partition would realistically involve ceding the South to Blacks – that would be their ethnostate – because that is where most of them are already. Would Wallace be willing to support seeing that through? I doubt it. But mum’s the word.
@ White Advocate
You completely missed my point about Amren. What I meant was, if an alliance between Jews and Whites was a fruitful endeavor, (Taylor still does consider Jews to be White, doesn’t he?) I would expect Amren to be much more than just a blog after all this time. Where is the special interest group on par with AIPAC? How about a political party? Nope, just a big circle jerk once a year in D.C.
I had more to say, but it seems your “antisemitism” rant has been dissected rather effectively by several posters and Suffice it to say that your accusation that “antisemitism” by our small group is keeping all these powerful, wealthy Jews from aiding our struggle is risible, to say the least. At one time I would have been opened to this possibility, but as I stated, I have yet to see any of these Jews you speak of meet us half-way.
It has also been noted by Hunter that you are Jewish. That would not surprise me, since you seem to have a curious aversion to our proposed ethnostate.
does it make any difference to any of you as far as your judgment of me and my future in your ethnostate is concerned, whether these views are based on the fact that I have a Jewish father; or, alternatively, that I’m fully Aryan but the mother of my child, my ex-wife, is half-Jewish (on her father’s side); or, that instead I’m a full Aryan who happens to have a very close Jewish friend.
In my ethnostate if you have a jewish father you’ll be encouraged to leave. If you had a jewish child you would be watched closely since your loyalty would be divided. Your very close jewish friend wouldn’t be so close by anymore.
Fundamentally, the view of many people who insist on a all-white, mongrel free, Jew free ethnostate in west Saskatchewan or some place is that the white race is extraordinarily weak. Like that immune-suppressed Boy in the Bubble, whites supposedly are at risk in extinction in a country as a result of one tiny group making up just 2% of population
It’s not that whites are that weak, it’s that jews are that toxic.
I would like White Advocate to address the, in my opinion legitimate, concerns of those pro-White activists who fear that letting in Jews will result in them diluting and taking over the movement. Something like that happened when conservatives welcomed Jewish ‘former liberals’ into their movement and then got pushed aside. Also, two Jews who have contributed to American Renaissance and haven’t exactly inspired confidence. I am referring to Robert Weissberg and Micheal Hart. See here for details: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-97784.html.
I hope Hunter will adress White Advocate’s comments, here or in a separate blog post. He seems a more intelligent debater than Guy White.
“Just answer me this one question: based on what I’ve been advocating here, does it make any difference to any of you as far as your judgment of me and my future in your ethnostate is concerned, whether these views are based on the fact that I have a Jewish father; or, alternatively, that I’m fully Aryan but the mother of my child, my ex-wife, is half-Jewish (on her father’s side); or, that instead I’m a full Aryan who happens to have a very close Jewish friend.”
You seem to be saying, in effect, that there are some “bad” whites and some “good” non-whites. Which is, of course, true.
The real issue is one of self determination, the idea that a given people should be able to control their own destiny. The white ethnostate is an attempt to achieve that goal for whites.
Could there be white traitors (bad whites) in the coming white nation? Sure. But it is a non sequitur to say, in effect, “Well, there could be white traitors in the coming white ethnostate, therefore it is peachy keen to allow other races to live there as well. After all, some of these non-whites might actually be allies and support the white cause.”
Do you see how absurd this is? It’s essentially saying, “Because there could be white traitors, let’s just not have a white ethnostate at all, and instead live in a multiracial society, so long as at least some of the non-whites who live there give lip service to our right to exist. Never mind the genocide, rapes, and cultural degradation. Move along, nothing to see here. After all, there are “good” non-whites, don’t ya know.”
Yeah, winning formula, that one.
The rational answer is simple. White traitors must be dealt with, and forfeit their right to live in the white ethnostate.
Those non-whites who wish us well (including Jews) should…wish us well. Just as we should wish them well. But no, they can’t live in the white ethnostate anymore than we can live in a non-white ethnostate. Israeli media does not invite me to control their programming, or even influence it in the slightest. Why should I want Jews to control, or even influence, white produced media? Where exactly is the quid pro quo here?
Moving on, I support Japan’s right to exist as an ethnostate. I don’t have to live in Japan to do that. Any sincere well wishers of the white race can send their good tidings from the four corners of the globe…they just can’t live in the white ethnostate.
“Fundamentally, the view of many people who insist on a all-white, mongrel free, Jew free ethnostate in west Saskatchewan or some place is that the white race is extraordinarily weak. Like that immune-suppressed Boy in the Bubble, whites supposedly are at risk in extinction in a country as a result of one tiny group making up just 2% of population”
Jews work as a team, which multiplies their effectiveness. But beyond that, again, the basic idea is self determination. How can we control our own destiny – economically, racially and culturally – if we aren’t calling the shots in our own lands? ALL of the shots. Why would we want aliens controlling our culture and the levers of power? How does it benefit us?
So it’s not that whites are like the Boy in the Bubble, any more than other peoples. If what’s been done to us had been done to Japan or Korea, they would lose their culture too, and ultimately their very nation. We’ve got to get away from this absurd idea that whites need aliens to call the shots for them – in their own lands, no less. Different sovereign peoples are free to exchange ideas, technology, and engage in various forms of commerce and trade. That’s not a “Bubble.” It’s legitimate interaction between various peoples, but we must still be in control of our own institutions. All of them.
We’ve got to get away from this absurd idea that whites need aliens to call the shots for them – in their own lands, no less.
What does the history of the Faustian Pact tell you about whites needing aliens to call the shots for them? Given the millenia-long pattern of repetition thereof, the suspicion as to necessity is nevertheless debatable – but certainly not absurd.
Unfortunately, little is being discussed here that relieves that suspicion.
“Which duplicities did you have in mind, BTW”
One comes to mind at the moment, though not original: We egg on the Jews to push ever harder to vitiate the First Amendment. Then, we protest loudly after it has happened, pointing to its disconsonance with our over 200 year tradition of free speech; and name those responsible.
You would facilitate the enactment of Hate Speech law, the only violation of “free speech” Jewry urgently wishes to promote, and then believe that Jewry’s reputation would be besmirched by your call for the repeal of the same, if only by implication of your appeal to Constitutional principle. Where did you get the idea that the Greater Judean goyim were, or would be, principled Constitutionalists, even were they so capable?
[Another instructive lecture by “uh” seems called for here.]
[Another instructive lecture by “uh” seems called for here.]
On what — bad English? Qu’ils mangent de l’Orwell.
We would indeed censor media, and produce edifying propaganda consistent with our interests, just as the Jews do.
I’m sure we’re all looking forward to that. Scores will be settled. Masses will be edified. And in the words of the Guru,
“MILLIONS will die ….
WE will win!”
The real issue is one of self determination, the idea that a given people should be able to control their own destiny.
Why — because the UN sez so? No people controls its own destiny, because no people is circumstantially uniform, with power equally distributed throughout the body politic.
Neo didn’t like the thought of not being in control of his destiny. Neo was a paleface fag. There is no spoon: there is no Neo.
Let 1,000 flowers bloom!
I presumed “White Advocate” was Jewish immediately after reading his initial comment.
This is somewhat tangential, but I think the commenter “wintermute” in a thread over at Steve Sailer’s blog last month made some important points that are relevant to this topic:
“”I think the primary reason that I would not consider [HBD/”race realism”] a “Jewish intellectual movement” as described by community college professor MacDonald is that it lacks the rabbinical/ charismatic core figure – the Freud or Ayn Rand – around whom the entire field revolves. HBD – to the extent that it exists at all – is based in science and not ideology. Its’ contents are not subject to sudden revision at the whims of the patriarch. It itsn’t – or isn’t yet – a movement of this kind.
That it might eventually become a field totally dominated by Jews who systematically suppress any consideration of Jewish group behavior that might be troublesome is, as you point out, well underway.
Indeed, I type this message out in full knowledge that it has a 50-50 chance of being posted. At some point, chances of reasonable posts with substantive observations about Jews – as opposed to grousing and grumbling – will fall, and I and many others will simply stop even bothering to type them out. This is obviously because Steve is afraid of running afoul of all those WASPs who are so intent on self destruction that they can’t allow any free speech.
The people you name – Pinker, Moldbug, Derbyshire – are all eminently untrustworthy as scientists and essayists where the JQ is concered.
Pinker conspired in open view with Slate’s Judith Shulevitz to suppress community college professor Kevin MacDonald’s Culture of Critique by reminding her that her denunciations of his work were giving him more readers.
Moldbug is notorious for denying any co-ordinated Jewish activity in the United States of any kind. He is on record as saying the “Palestinian Lobby” has much greater cultural and political weight than AIPAC and that the Jews in the United States who actually have politcal power don’t think of themselves, or act, as Jews. All of this on the fact that his father was in the State Department.
Moldbug is so breathtakingly dishonest that Sailer himself had to appear on a blog to talk him down from some especially embarrassing assertion regarding Jews and their political and cultural non existence.
Murray and Derbyshire are hirelings (I think the term “running dog” would be better for Derbyshire) who live in fear of their masters. Both are interesting writers and thinkers, and both distort the study of history and society in a foundational way in order to attain status, funding, political goals, etc.
In other words, I think that Undiscovered Jew has a good point. HBD is not currently a movement of the sort profiled by community college professor Kevin MacDonald, grouped around a charismatic rabbinical figure, but it could easily become something like the Frankfurt School, a grouping of impressive Jewish intellects dedicated to the suppression, as Undisco’d Jew is, of inconvenient facts. Indeed, I find this a very likely outcome of the whole movement.
What remains can be repackaged into Stephen Pinker’s dream of ‘Darwinian leftism’, where sociobiological knowledge is used to bypass that troublesome ‘human nature’ governor currently keeping the most demented aspects of Far Left social engineering at bay. Nurtureshock’s discussion of how to use information about neurological development in infants to bypass, short-circuit, or better repress natural and healthy in-group/ out-group neural modules – led, as we have seen in the Newsweek excerpt, by Jewish researchers – is already underway. In search of a more perfect union, the bright, sunlit, upperlands – – where, as always, the ability of all groups save Jews to politcally articulate themselves is totally destroyed.”
Kosher Advocate: should someone with a Palestinian father be allowed into Israel? Or that someone has a half-Arab child, should that guy be let into Israel? What about someone who just has a very close Arab friend? Should that guy be let into Israel?
” Perhaps a people too miserably weak to survive under such conditions, doesn’t deserve to?”
Maybe the the USA should turn off the spigot to Israel. I mean if ‘the only democracy in the Middle East’ isn’t strong enough to fend off an ocean of tens of millions of Arabs and Persians then maybe Israel doesn’t deserve to survive…
Bernard, who is Moldbug? If it’s a stupid nickname used on another blog cut the crap. It weakens your case and makes part of your message incomprehensible. You should avoid cliquish slang as much as possible.
“Why — because the UN sez so?”
No. Because we say so.
“No people controls its own destiny, because no people is circumstantially uniform, with power equally distributed throughout the body politic.”
This is a ridiculous standard and a willful misinterpretation (who’d a thunk it?) of what self determination is understood to mean. This discussion is about how to succeed in the real world, not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
“Unfortunately, little is being discussed here that relieves that suspicion.”
Perhaps your suspicions are unfounded. Just a thought.
It is obviously the case that whites are more than capable of governing themselves. There is no reason to obfuscate on this point. Or, I suppose I should say, no legitimate reason. We aren’t talking about Zimbabwe here.
The white ethnostate is an attempt to ensure that whites are in fact able to govern themselves without infiltration, distortion and disruption by alien agitators. As long as the alien resides amongst us, he will find a way to distort or subvert the government. Or, at least, his quest to do so will be never ending. The white ethnostate solves this problem in a very fundamental way – the alien may not reside amongst us. Does this solve all problems? Nope. But it does solve a helluva lot of them.
Anyone who has spent and spends time on HBD blogs, the “Stevesphere,” etc., understands fully well the points that “wintermute” makes.
One finds there quite a few argumentative, aggressive, energetic Jews (Half Sigma, The Undiscovered Jew, sabril, etc.) who spend not a little time and energy engaging in dissimulation and “policing” the blogs and the “movement” to make it safe for Jews, supportive of Israel, “anti anti-Semitic,” etc.
The motives, goals, strategy of these types are abundantly clear. They seek to marginalize what they regard and will attempt to portray to the public as “extremist” groups (i.e. those critical of Jews, or merely wishing to be independent of them, or just desiring not to have to submit to them, etc.), and present themselves as some sort of reasonable, respectable, non extreme, non “evil,” alternative. They seek to ensure that any kind of viable, larger HBD, race realist, race conscious, movement is one in which Jews are both safe, accepted and still retain their considerable power and influence. They may counter that they merely wish to be safe, that they do not desire power and influence. But it’s quite clear that their immense paranoia, fear, and will to power demand it, even if they themselves aren’t fully conscious or aware of this (their famous self-deception). Whether it’s the “king’s ear,” financial power, political/cultural/social/media influence, they have a congenital attraction to it and a immense need to commandeer it. I don’t fault or blame them for it; they evolved as such. Hundreds of years of being wandering “middle man minorities,” money traders, money lenders, tax farmers etc., whose very existence and livelihood depended largely on cunning and manipulation of people, words, contracts, etc. will do that to you. They didn’t spend the past few thousand years as settled farmers and productive craftsmen like most people in the world did. But just because I don’t fault or blame them doesn’t mean that I or anybody else should be forced to be subjected to them.
It’s a script that by now is all too familiar. As a commenter above notes, we saw it with the Neocons, who were able to basically castrate the paleocons and traditional Republicans. The paleocons and trad Republicans were so successfully neutered by the Neocons that they’ve been powerless, ineffectual, and utterly useless for decades now, wandering in the wilderness. And they’ve been mercilessly slandered, so much so that the public’s firm impression of them by now is that they are anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, anti-“defense,” pro-Muslim/Arab, unpatriotic, etc. They were able to get smeared as “unpatriotic conservatives” by none other than that carpetbagging jew boy David Frum.
No. Because we say so.
AM BIG TUFFIE
SAYY ME CONTROL DESTINEE
BRAKE U
BORGO SMASH!
self determination is understood to mean
TRAINSPOTTING HAVE ANSWERZ
BORGO MAKE U LISTEN TO BIG TUFFIE
TAIRNSTOPPING MAKE U BIG SUCCSEX IN REAL WORLD FOR SRUE
JUST U WAIT
BRAKE U GUD
“Mencius Moldbug” is a blogger, not simply a random commenter. He’s not as big as someone like Sailer or anything, but some should be familiar with him.
“Moldbug” is referred to by “wintermute” in his comment. I provided a link to the Sailer thread where “wintermute” makes his comment for context.
Here is what n/a has said about “Mencius Moldbug”
http://racehist.blogspot.com/search?q=moldbug
I think this is an interesting dialogue, no?
@65 Hunter, you’re making an educated guess about my identity, and you’re almost certainly lying to your readers about your “trusted friends,” none of whom I believe know my identity.
@66 Captain Chaos, just walking around the college town I live in this evening, full of white Girls-Gone-Wild on Halloween, I agree that your people (my people, too) have culturally degenerated. Basically, they’re spoiled. “Laid-back” seems to be deeply ingrained in the white temprement, in contrast to, say, Jews and Asians. Is that the Jews fault too? I think too many white kids are just fat and happy, listening to rap music in the nearly all-white census tracts they live in (see again my link to the demographic map).
@68 Western New Yorker, American Renaissance and its affiliates has produced research like The Color of Crime that has filtered down to the conservative media and even non-conservative people like Will Saletin at Slate. Jared has spoke on tv and radio, and written books, and has changed the minds of some people (including myself). People like Buchanan and Sailer and Brimelow have done even more along these lines. All of this is an accomplishment. On the other hand, it’s also true that explicit race realism remains more verbotten than ever, and not a single elected official in the whole country is willing to be seen publicly at an American Renaissace conference. But what the hell has the anti-Semitic movement accomplished in the same period? And what evidence is there to suggest that American Renaissance would have been MORE effective or popular if it had explicitely devoted itself to naming the Jew?
@69, Old Right: thanks for your answer. I keep having to reformulate the question I keep trying to get answered but never do. One more try. Why are anti-white views more dangerous when they are held by Jews, or half-Jews, or quarter-Jews, than when they are held by white Gentiles?
@70 Van Speyk. I think your concern that Jews will take over pro-white organizations is a valid one. For Gods sake, they’ve been bred towards being excellent lawyers and merchants and Talmudic scholars for centuries, during the same time most Gentiles were being bred to be excellent blacksmiths or potato farmers. Jews in my experience do tend (repeat, TEND) to be ambitious, talkative, persuasive, manipulative, sometimes duplicitous. My thought is that whites need to emulate these traits, at least the positive ones, and many do. Hopefully, competition with Jews in the movement would encourage whites with the same capabilities to step up to the plate. But, hell, maybe some short-term affirmative action may be in order, limiting the number of Jews that can hold top slots and so forth. As I said, its a valid concern.
@71 Trainspotter Thanks for making clear that bad whites would be kicked out of your ethnostate. Along with good Jews. Not because good Jews are bad, but because they supposedly aren’t white. Even though they LOOK WHITE and ACT WHITE and support PRO-WHITE policies. This at least gets us to the crux of my problem with those who would exclude all Jews. By refusing to discriminate amongst white Jews, you are giving any of them that would otherwise support you NO CHOICE BUT TO OPPOSE YOU. Where the hell do you think they’re going to go after you kick them out of the pro-white movement? You’re driving them back into the arms of the ADL and the SPLC. And if, as someone urged above, you kick them out by saying that if they are sincere they will try to convince their own fellow Jews not to be anti-white, JUST WHAT ARGUMENT TO THEIR BRETHREN DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO MAKE AT THAT POINT? “I’ve been to the white nationalist sites, and I am persuaded that their plans for our vertical expulsion from this planet will be handled on a case-by-case basis after the revolution comes.”
One thing I must add: I’m not opposed discussing the Jewish Question, and Jewish involvement in the Decline of the West. I was not a fan of how Michael Hart reacted to Duke in 2006 at the AmRen Conference. I suppose the concern is if you bring Hart in, Duke sooner or later is gonna get kicked out. I’m saying let them both in. And don’t let it happen! Assert yourself! But do treat all your allies by the same standard. And learn to DISCRIMINATE based on important differences, not superficial ones.
“AM BIG TUFFIE”
LOL! But, nah. It’s just the reality of the situation. People have the rights that they can successfully assert. Not because the UN says so, not because I’m a “BIG TUFFIE,” or anything like that.
It really is just because we say so, and it’s what we want. Others say differently, and right now they are winning. Again, not because the UN says so, not because they are Big Tuffies, but simply because it is what they want and they have the power to make it happen.
Conversely, for the present at least, we can’t make it happen. So, to an unfortunate extent, this is all just hot air. Yet it is potentially important hot air. Revolutions and political transformations don’t just happen out of the blue. They normally are discussed and debated (hot air) for quite some time. At a certain point, if the Idea is powerful enough, it grows beyond the dedicated few who formulated the Idea, and gains enough real world support to make something happen. Even then, it may still be defeated in three D reality. But, sometimes, it succeeds. Obviously, that’s the goal.
Is this really beyond your understanding?
“TRAINSPOTTING HAVE ANSWERZ”
He sure do!
“By refusing to discriminate amongst white Jews, you are giving any of them that would otherwise support you NO CHOICE BUT TO OPPOSE YOU.”
Surely, we’ll be crippled by this loss! There are so many of them that support us, after all, and they represent so much of the Jewish community!
Come on, man. The Jewish community, as a whole, has been an unmitigated disaster for white people. The media which they dominate, both in entertainment and news, is utterly, Soviet style hostile to us. The great wealth that they control does not fund pro-white groups, but anti-white groups. The have been major drivers behind pretty much every destructive social trend of the twentieth century. They have pushed, and achieved, a massive third world invasion of our shores which is nothing but a disaster for us, and has convinced all too many pro-whites that we can only hope to get a tiny sliver of our country back, if any at all. Name ANY policy question that has pro-white/anti-white implications, and the Jewish community will ALWAYS take the anti-white position. Always.
Yes, it really is as bad as all that.
The above is only the most glancing and superficial treatment of the enormity of the disaster that has been inflicted upon us by Jewish supported policies. What in the hell do you expect us to do? The Jewish community has great wealth and controls enormous resources. If they wanted to help us out, they could. They aren’t doing it, Advocate. Instead, they are doing the opposite, and seek our destruction.
Are there Jewish people who are decent? Of course, I know some personally. Are they involved in the anti-white policies that permeate the Kwa? No. But, as a GROUP, they operate in one way – anti-white. There is such a thing as group dynamics, Advocate. It can’t be ignored. And those group dynamics make it abundantly clear to me that Jews must be excluded from the coming white nation. Yes, every last one of them, even the “good” ones. Again, group dynamics.
The good ones (from the white perspective) are outliers. What about their descendants? Will their sons and daughters be pro-white? Their grandsons? When you have a group dynamic, it is reasonable to assume that over time people will return to the norm, to the mean. The Jewish norm is anti-white. On average, that is where the Jewish community is going to be. Why would we want that in the coming white nation?
As a group, Jews behave in a way that no white ethny does. Are there asshole Irishmen? (better phrased, are there any Irishmen that AREN’T assholes?) Of course there are. But, as a group, the Irish don’t seek our genocide. Neither does any other white ethny. Every white group has its anti-white traitors, but no white ethny in America, as a group, actively supports the dispossession of American whites. Jews are unique. You can call them white if you want (they aren’t white by my definition, but whatever), but they are clearly distinct, and uniquely hostile to European Whites, which is what I mean by white.
Believe me, given some of the people that I have known, I would prefer this not to be the case. But it is the case. And, on top of that, I again don’t see why some Jew who has the Right of Return (which I, not being Jewish, don’t have), expects to be part of the coming white nation. I don’t qualify for his nation, but somehow I’m a bad guy for saying that he shouldn’t qualify for mine? Basically, he doesn’t consider me one of his people, but I’m supposed to consider him one of mine? As Linder so often says, one standard for Jews, another for everyone else.
Even though they LOOK WHITE and ACT WHITE and support PRO-WHITE policies.
Ted Sallis at The Occidental Observer has recently written a couple important articles regarding EGI. I’ve linked to them below. Perhaps you should take a look at them.
“Racial Cuckoldry, Racial Mimicry”
“More on Racial Cuckoldry and Racial Mimicry”
No, I am not.
OD isn’t the only racialist site you have posted on. I got an email about you a week or so ago from a comrade. He got a friend of his to research your background. He was able to find out your real identity.
Note: For the record, I am not in the habit of accusing commentators of being Jews.
NN,
What, you never heard of a wedge issue? The point is to encourage Balkanization, to maximize Balkanization.
“Basically, he doesn’t consider me one of his people, but I’m supposed to consider him one of mine? As Linder so often says, one standard for Jews, another for everyone else.”
YES!
This is where the rubber hits the road!
If these Jews want in, then I think that a German-descended Holocaust Revisionist such as myself should be allowed into Israel!
‘The Myth of the Six Million’
http://www.ihr.org/books/hoggan/Myth_TOC.html
@92: Hunter, I think you probably have the wrong person, but who knows? If you wanna impress me, send me an email with my name. Please don’t reveal it publicly, for my sake or that of the person who may be misidentified. Also, let me know if you don’t want me to post on your blog anymore.
My comments here are not typical at all for a Jew, I think, but I guess they are typical of someone from a mixed background. And I am mixed. My Jewish father, like many boomers, had very little interest in his own heritage and, pace what you anti-semites teach, very little ethnocentrism. He converted to another religion and married my shiksa mother. I and my siblings had no religious training growing up, not much contact with relatives, and today all but one of us have very little interest in our Jewish heritage. I have been in a synagogue five or six times in my life. I’m not hostile toward my Jewish side, I’m just indifferent to it and unfamilar with it. I also married a shiksa, and we have several of our own children. I suppose I could move to Israel as long as they didn’t find out my father converted, but I have absolutely no interest in doing so. I feel no connection and I don’t think my family would be allowed to accompany me anyway unless we all converted. In sum, I’m NOT part of the tribe. The tribe thinks so, and so do I.
I bring this up to make the point that Jewish intermarriage with European-American whites produces literally millions of people like me. The intermarriage rate is HUGE, at least 40%! We grow up in a white world, think of ourselves as white, and more often than not marry and reproduce with Aryans ourselves. All the while Jewish men continue to marry more shiksa women and create new families with little connection to Judaism. And, listen here, anti-Semites: WE GENERALLY LACK THE ETHNOCENTRISM TRADITIONALLY ATTIBUTABLE TO JEWS.
What I can’t understand is why you and other anti-Jewish white nationalists would want to INCREASE the number of “Jews” in the world, by insisting that people with partial Jewish blood, and their children, think of themselves as “Jewish” whether they want to or not. Or even force us to move to the Jewish state. Why not view us as we see ourselves, as white or partially white, or at least potentially assimilable? We are highly likely to mate with Aryan women anyway and produce more kids with anyway! Why do you want us and our children to be forced to cast our lot with your enemy, rather than with YOU? Do you really need any more enemies?
“Basically, he doesn’t consider me one of his people, but I’m supposed to consider him one of mine?”
As I said before, you’re not allowed to immigrate to any European country either, not just Israel. And Israelis w/o US Citizenship are not allowed to immigrate to the United States. And Europeans don’t you consider you to be one of their people either.
The only double standard is that Isarel allows American Jews to become citizens while European nations don’t offer the same. Seriously, though, in a world where people who want to vertically expel Jews exist and have a tiny chance of coming to power, doesn’t it make sense to have a state that promises a haven to them?
@94 Logicar, According to Butz, who I read this past summer, that Hoggan book is about the weakest revisionist text out there.
White Advocate, if you and those like you don’t consider yourselves to be Jewish, and will continue to marry Whites, thus furthering the separation from Jewishness, then what is the problem? If assimilation is what you want, that is to throw your lot in with Whites, what concern is it of yours if we exclude Jews, who have no interest in assimilation (as they wish to go on being Jewish)? Point being: at some point the door must be closed.
Btw, your claim that Jews lack the ethnocentrism ascribed to them by us is belied by the fact that you, even as one who is only partially Jewish, was not raised in a Jewish cultural milieu, nor claims any especial concern for Jews, is belied by the fact that you tacitly advocate for their interests. You are only partially Jewish, and yet it is with you.
1.) There are only a handful of Jews who are arguably pro-White. Paul Gottfried, David Kelsey, Marcus Epstein, and Michael Levin come to mind. Most of the “pro-White Jews” seem to care more about “fighting anti-Semitism” than any other aspect of our cause.
2.) I will give White Advocate honesty points for confessing his Jewish ancestry. I had known about this for over a week, but with everything else going on, I didn’t have time to address the matter. For a while, I thought he might be a friend of mine at the same university.
3.) I’m not sure what to do with mischlings.
4.) I can’t do much about cryptos on this blog.
5.) I will give this more thought. In the meantime, I will allow the discussion to continue. The mischling issue would make a good blog entry.
“Unfortunately, little is being discussed here that relieves that suspicion [of the necessity for alien interference].”
Perhaps your suspicions are unfounded. Just a thought.
Um…no, your “thought” cannot be dignified with that term.
We have a 1700-year pattern of interference with which to deal in reckoning the suitability of Occidentals/Europeans/Whites for authentic self-government.
You might have recognized and acknowledged, in the pattern of the Faustian Pact itself, a pattern of deal-making with the oligarchs or their agents involved, and not with the pertinent populace itself.
Then the “Free White Men” populist agrarians and forest rabbits around here might have wanted to argue that, were we to reduce our politico-economic dimensions to the tribal level, we could, indeed, dispense with the Jew, in obviation of the Iron Law of Oligarchy.
That would have qualified as, “just a thought”.
What I can’t understand is why you and other anti-Jewish white nationalists would want to INCREASE the number of “Jews” in the world, by insisting that people with partial Jewish blood, and their children, think of themselves as “Jewish” whether they want to or not. Or even force us to move to the Jewish state. Why not view us as we see ourselves, as white or partially white, or at least potentially assimilable? We are highly likely to mate with Aryan women anyway and produce more kids with anyway! Why do you want us and our children to be forced to cast our lot with your enemy, rather than with YOU? Do you really need any more enemies?
It’s a quasi-religious, psycho-sexual thing – we seek purity at all costs. You are impure. We racial Puritans, on the other hand, are pure, and we pride ourselves on our purity. There is no way you can cleanse yourself – you were born impure, and are tainted forevermore. We must not touch you, nor you us. You despoil Aryan females with your touch – so, above all, please do not touch them.
(That you might contribute something to our survival is of little consequence in view of this most essential consideration.)