At TOQ Online, Ted Sallis responds to Guy White’s response. I’m crossposting this here for G.W.’s benefit. He frequently reads this site. – Hunter Wallace
Ted Sallis:
Guy White is an absolute retard. I loved the part in which he argued that “Berbers are white” because “scientists” (who?) say so, and that “the American government says so.” That’s great. The government also considers Arabs and Iranians to be “white.” Certainly if you consider Jews to be white you’ll also agree that Arabs and Iranians are white too. Note that he thinks that a picture drawn by Ancient Egyptians is somehow “proof” of his bizarre racial “theories.”
Once again, he mixes and matches figures from different papers; I’ve already critiqued his stupidity in comparing charts that contain different population groups at different levels of genetic relatedness.
Note as well that he completely ignores the data showing that Jews are Middle-Eastern-European mixes. I guess that’s the 5% of the “truth” he’s leaving out.
Guy White claims there is no evidence that Jews would be more distant from groups like Germans than say are Romanians. A detailed analysis of Jews and a variety of European populations *in the same study* has not been done, but I note a preliminary analysis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2211542/
put the Fst distance of a predominantly Ashkenazi cluster from a predominantly NW European cluster at almost twice the distance of the NW Europeans to a predominanly SE European cluster. (I note that Heath et al puts German-Romanian Fst at less 1/5 of what the Price paper puts Jewish-NW Euro Fst, put not wanting to mix “apples and oranges” I will not make any conclusions from that).
Like I said in my essay, more work needs to be done and, unlike Guy White, I’m not making any hysterical dogmatic conclusions. It is evident – and this is the point of my essay – that the Ashkenazi are not a European ethnic group. They are a Middle-Eastern-European mix, most likely.
With respect to “confusing continents with race,” I’d point to Figure 1 here:
http://hagsc.org/myerslab/papers/LiAbsher-Science-HGDP.pdf
and, ignoring the Adygi, no more European than are the Jews, you see a clear difference in ancestral proportions between European and non-European populations. I can also point to an abstract from the 2008 ASHG from Witherspoon et al, putting European Fst differences as less than that found between Indian caste groups and less than different groups of Japanese samples. By the way, the NW Euro-Jewish Fst in the Price et al study is larger than the Indian caste/Japanese group Fsts from the Witherspoon abstract.
My point is not that “Jews are not white” (define: white), or that the Ashkenazim are not very close to Europeans. Indeed, even the Price Fst is low and if you want to extend “white” to include that level of genetic distance, fine. There is no “textbook definition” of “white Fst.”
But do NOT lie and say that the Ashkenazim are a European ethnic group, like all the gentile groups. It is not so, and the studies I cited in the original essay confirm this to the extent that the available data allow us to make a tentative conclusion.
To summarize: Guy White’s fundamental dishonesty on this topic is evident in that he completely ignores the data showing that the Ashkenazi exhibit significant amounts of modern, Middle Eastern ancestry, and that the genetic distinction between Ashkenazim and Europeans is most likely due to this Middle Eastern heritage. This is supported by the single locus marker work of Hammer, as well as the Blood paper (from which the “Patriarchs” figure was obtained) demonstrating sharing of disease alleles between Askkenazi, Sephardic, and “Oriental” Jews. And if the Ashkenazi are just the same as Europeans, how is it (Need et al), that individuals with even just one Ashkenazi grandparent (much less four!) can be distinguished from Europeans? Where’s the 5% of “missing truth?”
White is also dishonest to ignore the preliminary Fst data that show that White’s comment about Germans, Jews, and Romanians is undoubtedly wrong.
He is merely being silly when he asserts that US government racial definitions, and Ancient Egyptian drawings, are somehow relevant to modern racial science.
He is being obfuscatory when he makes believe that “continental population groups” (which many population geneticists use in lieu of the dreaded word “race”) do not share a degree of genetic commonality.
Since Guy White is free to define “white” as he pleases, and since a plausible argument for Jewish inclusion can be made, the original essay at The Occidental Observer specifically states that the issue is NOT one of inclusion/exclusion.
The issue instead is simply whether the Ashkenazi can be considered a European, western ethnic group similar to the gentile ethnic groups of Europe. As the Ashkenazi can be well distinguished from northern Europeans and from southern Europeans and from eastern Europeans (at least, Russians) (Seldin et al, Price et al, Need et al), it is difficult to understand how they can be European if they are distinct from all types of Europeans (putting aside the cultural arguments made in the original article).
The Ashkenazim are also distinct it seems from Middle Easterners as well, despite the mixed ancestry. I believe that the Ashkenazim can be considered an independent “mini-race” or “mini-subrace,” a stabilized blend of Middle Eastern and European stocks who became modified over the centuries through endogamy, drift, and selection. This may be right or it may be wrong. Let’s see future data instead of the dogmatic hysteria of Guy White and his fellows. If somehow it turns out that he’s correct, we can all admit it – but the way things stand today, with the data we have today, he is simply wrong.
Many Ashkenazi are well pleased with the genetic data, since those data generally support Jewish history, tradition, and identity. Again, I’m not sure why anyone would want to strip from this ancient people their objectively determined lineage.
The truth about race and genetics is being painstakenly built up over the years in the teeth of fierce race-denial from politically motivated “academics.” What we do not need is people allegedly “race realist” distorting these data because they do not like the implications.
The most prudent approach is to judge the current data on its merits and wait to see what the future brings.
Donald, identification is a function of ancestry. Because someone identifies their lineage does not mean they are a bad person or involved in a Jewish mafia.
I do deny Abrahamic theology, but I think you want me to pretend my ancestry is something it isn’t.
Crypto Jew Advocate’s comments are revealing.
Isn’t this the traditional Jewish strategy of attempting to ally with predatory White elites? It’s a strategy of seduction, flattering some perceived elite group by insulting the rest of their group. Isn’t this the religious style universalism that Whites are supposedly susceptible to, replacing our race with some “elite” or “chosen” group that just happens to includes Jews? One can’t help but think of Esther and modern equivalents like Monica Lewinsky, or perhaps their male counterparts like the Clinton’s daughters new husband. Isn’t this the way British elites were infiltrated by Jews?
Isn’t this sort of thing a traditional anti-Jewish joke? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMKYaDHilJA
Perhaps the internet has sufficiently bypassed Jewish censorship and control of media to immunize Whites against typical Jewish pleadings, and their best and main strategic weapon now is just money. One would think that any “White Nationalist leader” willing to carry water for Jews would be flooded with offers of money. 30 pieces of silver and all.
National Rebirth,
I’m not questioning the value of cranial morphology. I’m questioning the conclusions drawn from its study over a century ago. I don’t believe that the Nordic/Alpinic/Mediterranean terminology has proven particularly parsimonious, descriptive, or predictive. Consider this alternative interpretation, one which is compatible with craniometry and proves more compatible with linguistic, genetic, and historical data.
The Danube River Tribes originally inhabited Europe. They’re epitomized genetically by Y haplogroup R1b, spoke a largely extinct family of languages which serve as the non-IE substrate of the Germanic languages, and can be found in their purest form among the Basques. Their noses were generally small and their chins were generally weak.
The Volga River Tribes, Indo-Europeans, Hg R1a1, utilized superior military technology to invade and subjugate the entirety of Europe, save for isolated refuges (Basques, Saami). Their domination was more political than genetic, with the aristocratic classes disproportionately demonstrating Volgan characteristics – dolicocephalic craniometry, straight and thin noses, prominent chins, and tiny mouths.
The Nile River Tribes, Afro-Asiatics, Hg J, started out as White as the rest of us, but have suffered from more admixture due to their location and their longer history of participating in civilization. Their hair was typically wavy or curly, their noses were prominent and often hooked, and their mouths were larger. They were the nucleus of Egyptian Civilization, dominated Mediterranean trade, and interbred with Danubian populations of Southern Europe to the extent that a new intermediate type, the Mediterranean type common throughout the Southern extremities of Europe, took shape.
The proposition that the major river valleys were fountainheads from which Whiteness emerged independently but convergently is a challenge to the prevailing “Nordicist” perspective. The portrait it paints is not of Europeans as the sole creators of civilization (Kempite?), but as the last remnants of a once-pervasive type who have managed to survive unadulterated thanks to their relative backwardness and isolation.
This is our turn in the meat grinder of civilization. It’s a pattern as old as history itself.
1. Precivilized Whites invade crumbling civilization
2. Whites self-sort into caste specializations
3. Wealthy Whites hire gardeners from nearby rainforest
4. Gardeners run off with their daughters
5. Repeat
With the exception of one curious managerial caste from Egypt’s lost civilization, there have been no exceptions to the pattern.