In Part 1 we discussed the ‘ruling class’ and the ‘country class’ as described in Angelo Codevilla’s recent Spectator article, and modified his descriptions to fit racial realities. His article ends with this paragraph:
How the country class and ruling class might clash on each item of their contrasting agendas is beyond my scope. Suffice it to say that the ruling class’s greatest difficulty — aside from being outnumbered — will be to argue, against the grain of reality, that the revolution it continues to press upon America is sustainable. For its part, the country class’s greatest difficulty will be to enable a revolution to take place without imposing it. America has been imposed on enough.
Well, luckily for us, this subject is within our scope, and we don’t see it as much of an ‘imposition’ to ‘impose’ on any universalist loyalties to systems which serve the ruling class.
Many white advocates believe the electoral system is a lost cause. However, whites still make up over ¾ of the electorate in this country. In our discussions regarding the ‘Southern Ethnostate’, the case was made that even in the states of the Deep South where whites make up the smallest portion of the electorate of anywhere in the US, whites acting together can defeat the alliance of the ruling class and their nonwhite dependents. Even stronger is the concept that the ‘Republican Party’ is hopelessly corrupt, an opinion which Codevilla shares.
This is based on the misconception that American political parties are organic entities with a set of values, the way they are in most of the rest of the world. They might better be seen as pseudo-legislative bodies. Instead of forming coalitions after the election the way they do in most countries, here they form them into ‘party’ coalitions before the election. The ‘Democrat Party’ in fact is a coalition of the Black National Party, Partido de la Raza, the Organized Labor Party, the Feminist Party, the Gay Party, the ‘Green’ (more like ‘Watermelon’) Party, and the Liberal Party.
Like it or not, the U.S. is inherently a ‘2-party’ system. The reason for this is partly because of our ‘winner take all’ elections. Yet, all Anglo countries have this system, and most of them have at least 3-4 large parties plus some minor and regional parties. What America has that these other countries don’t is a separate and strong executive branch. If you can’t compete for top dog, you’re not in the race. Whereas for example the Liberal Democrats in Britain can force themselves into the administration with a third place finish, as they did recently, Ross Perot ended up with absolutely nothing after a strong third place finish in 1992. This is why even strong ‘third parties’ such as the Populist Party and Progressive Party ended up being assimilated by one of the two larger parties, as did more recent ‘third party’ movements such as those led by George Wallace and Ross Perot. In the past, even these ‘third parties’ started out from regional bases, but politics are far more nationalized than ever today along ideological lines, with non-ideological regional differences minimal.
American political parties can’t kick out renegade officials like Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo, the way most political parties in other countries can. The ‘Republican Party’ disavowed David Duke, and he still almost won. Today, they might just have to stomach a ‘David Duke’ who didn’t have a history of being a KKK leader and being photographed in a nazi costume. Witness the change of Sean Hannity from viciously attacking Ron Paul to becoming a defender of Rand Paul.
Candidates are usually elected by the voters, in the ‘primary elections’. Party officials are elected by lower officials, which are elected by even lower officials, on down to the lowest level which are elected by local voters. Derek Black of StormFront was elected to one of these bottom-rung positions. David Duke’s allies at one point dominated entire areas of Louisiana. Political parties are also losing strength due to campaign finance laws, and ‘lobbies’ such as MoveOn.org and the NRA often prove stronger than the ‘party establishments’.
Most importantly, this divides up the electoral battle into 2 different battles. Instead of trying to take on the entire electorate all at once, you only take on about 1/6 of the electorate in the primary election for your first battle. Only about 1/3 as many voters vote in primary elections as in the general elections in November, and they are split between the two parties, so about 1/6 of the electorate more or less, depending on the general party orientation of the place. Then if you win this battle, you will have the votes of many people in the general election who vote mainly based on political party. Remember, we’re not out there to represent the ideology which currently has taken hold of this party, but to shift it. If you can’t get people to register to vote with the appropriate party identification to enable themselves to vote in these major party primaries, you’re certainly not going to be able to get any significant number of people to commit to voting for a candidate for a ‘third party’.
Many people think it is a lost cause to attempt to win electoral control of the country to put in place a white-friendly government. They may be right. Yet, for each of the alternative paths suggested, this strategy still represents the best course for the time being.
Many white activists favor secession of one part of the country or another, and focusing on that region. Maybe it’s the deep South, where whites already vote as a bloc. Maybe it’s the northwest or northern New England, with their still mostly white populations and independent spirit. Maybe it’s the post-industrial Ohio Valley and upper Appalachia, which are still largely white and have suffered heavily but never benefited from the global economy.
In the two secessions most familiar to us, the separation from Britain which led to the formation of the United States, and the attempted secession of the south/eastern states in 1861, the movement had to come from the state legislatures in order to have legitimacy. In the separation of Ireland from the United Kingdom, and the ongoing attempts to do the same for Scotland and Wales, the establishment and control of a legislature is again a key factor. In order to get a successful secessionist movement in a state legislature, one must first get secessionists elected to the state legislature. For the above reasons, this will be most successful using one of the major parties as a vehicle, perhaps the Democrat Party in Vermont or West Virginia, or perhaps the Republican Party in Texas or Alabama. Once in the state legislature, these people can help push laws which contradict bad federal policies on issues such as gun rights and immigration. Even if a federal court attempts to invalidate such laws, the battle will alert many people to the tyrannical nature of the federal government, and strengthen the will of the people in that state to resist the federal government
Many whites think that the U.S. will collapse in on itself for a variety of reasons, and that only a small remnant can survive. Yet even here, the political process is useful. If the Federal government implodes, people will look to state and local governments. In the meantime, we can promote policies which enable people to evade federal tyranny, such as making it easier for people to home-school and engage in small-scale farming, as well as combating domestic spying and the abuse of police power, or at least discouraging state and local law enforcement from participating in this tyranny. Most importantly, this will help you form networks and alert more people to the tyranny of the federal government. More people will listen to or perhaps even come out to support someone running under a major party label than something they never heard of.
Many people might object that this ‘doesn’t turn people explicitly pro-white’ or that ‘an explicitly pro-white candidate or movement has no hope’. Unfortunately for us, most white people aren’t programmed to place being ‘explicitly pro-white’ at the top of their list. As Kevin MacDonald notes, white people are low on ‘xenophobia’ and high on ‘moral universalism’. We’re going to have to frame our arguments in terms of moral universalism, and perhaps in ‘American’ or ‘Southern’ or “Western’ civic nationalism.
We’ve got a good example to work off of: the people who put us in this awful situation to begin with. The jews did not become the most dominant group in modern day United States, and perhaps the world, by basing their political movements based on what is explicitly ‘good for the jews’. Even the ADL has pretended for a large part of its history to be a ‘civil rights organization’ dedicated to ‘combating hate’ against all ethnic and religious groups.
We have to do the same. Figure out which policies are good for white people and promote them on their own merits. Build coalitions of people who support these policies. Take every possible chance to drive those with the most anti-white polices out of the coalitions we participate in, for example those who support open borders and mass immigration.
This process should come naturally to us: most of us didn’t just wake up one day and decide to be ‘pro-white’ for the hell of it. Maybe we supported values which come naturally to white people, and eventually came to realize that these ideas are difficult achieve in a multicultural society or one which is dominated by jews. Maybe we got tired of anti-white discrimination and the marginalization of whites, and came to the realization that the only way to ensure freedom from anti-white tyranny is a ‘white ethno-state’. Maybe we noticed that new immigrants, and even long entrenched racial minorities, don’t view themselves as ‘American’ in the same that we do, and most likely never will. Maybe we noticed that everyone in the world was allowed to have an ethnic identity except for us. We need to get back to our roots, to what made us pro-white in the first place, and encourage these ‘implicitly white’ movements.
Our coalition is ‘beyond left and right’ in the sense that we don’t simply join in on one side or the other of whatever the talking heads on the media tell us is supposed to be the ‘Democratic’ or ‘Republican’ side of the debate today. It does not necessitate however that we disregard the way the country works in favor of the way we wish it worked and launch a Quixotic ‘new party’. Nor does it necessitate that we go out of our way to distance ourselves from labels which are favored by large portions of white people in favor of inventing new labels which will seem alien to most white people, thus leading them to reject or ignore all ideas emanating from such labels.
Those of use most aware of racial realities can and should of course continue to talk and meet with each other and promote our ideas. Yet, it won’t be enough, and likely never will be. White people just aren’t innately driven to that sort of thing, not nearly to the same degree other races are.
Many trends favor us. Our enemies are becoming more blatant in their agenda. Internecine squabbles between white people over such things as religion and socio-economic class are becoming less important. The media is democraticizing. More people read this site than if we walked around throwing photocopies of our articles on peoples’ lawns. Fewer and fewer people are reading, watching, and listening to the elite-approved ‘mainstream’ media than ever before, and far fewer still limit themselves solely to these sources.
Yet, we are in a precarious position. If we screw this up, we might not get another chance. We have to be smart about it, not barging forward waving our banners and screaming from the top of our lungs the most extreme version of our belief system at every opportunity. We have to do it intelligently, which means in a manner cognizant of the way our people, nation, and political structure function; and make sure that our plan of attack fits the battlefield.
I particularly agree with you about state and local governments being the heirs to power in the event of a Federal collapse of legitimacy. The states have all the necessary governmental machinery of independent nations, except perhaps their own foreign ministries. Almost all the states are as large as the typical European country, and all have developed economies. Most importantly, their politicians have the lust for power. Wouldn’t the Governor of Kansas love to be the President of Kansas instead?
“We have to do the same. Figure out which policies are good for white people and promote them on their own merits. Build coalitions of people who support these policies.”
It has already been done by the modern liberal orthodoxy we see today, with YKW at the helm. It is a separate process (and unaddressed in your article) to build a competitor vs. a de novo movement. This doesn’t imply I disagree with localism.
The competitor is a majority of whites who now, in summation, receive more from Uncle Sugar, than pay. This is not addressed in Codevilla’s piece. You know, like the recent blog here about the Slate article – a super wealthy (an taxed) upper elite than throw candy about. How many Tea Partiers are “fighting” to rescind their Medicare and SS? The 30-50 y.o. group, un-swallowed by the government machine, with “real American” values (despite age), work like slaves such that 30 minutes with their kids at the end of the day is their oasis.
The “rubber hitting the road” is that 30-50% of Uncle Sugars goodies are paid out of debt which is losing steam… fast. The bitterest part is that the super-wealthy are partially aware and carefully ensconced by virtue of that wealth and privilege. Their tent stakes are thin and shallow, and they’ve got a big, double-tank diesel, ready to roll. The rest of us… not so lucky. We’ll be apart of more onerous labor, protecting our Truman Lots from graffiti and theft, bandaging our kids up from getting the shit kicked out of them at public school. You catch my drift.
My point is that is it too late and too stacked of a game to grass root to success. Slow and steady like the tortoise won’t win. We need to work on building ourselves into the hare, waiting for the sound of the starting gun. This will be a revolutionary sprint. It need not be covert. It does need leadership. It does need to be well-networked by folks on the ground who can “press flesh” and look one another in the eye.
I was kind of hoping that that was what the A3P party was about.
Mike
Mike,
I think that as soon as the men in our small towns lose faith in Uncle Sugar, that starting gun goes off. I attend community meetings about the economics of our area and practice Taqqiyah, but when political issues come up, I use polarizing conservative talking points about taxes (taxpayers versus taxeaters), and one time when one of the men was talking about a welfare mom with 6 kids by different babydaddies, I said, “It wasn’t long ago that such women had their tubes tied by the order of the court.” That shocked the females and the liberal manginas.
The women and manginas are in favor of higher taxes and more nanny government, the men opposed (although politely).
H. Rock White is certainly correct about not mentioning our core issues (race and the JQ) but rather practicing Taqqiyah and using our ready made Rush Limbaugh talking points.
It’s going to get real interesting when the .gov teat dries up. There’s a lot of men with core conservative values in my town, but they don’t have any confidence in themselves because the Big Nurse Nanny State has Psy-Opsed them into the fetal position. That will change when Big Nurse’s Big Boob no longer expresses FRN milk to the masses. Of course we’ll have even bigger problems, like day to day survival. I recommend the book “Lucifer’s Hammer” a very good “collapse” scenario written by David Niven in 1977. I think it will be something between that and the Great Depression.
“Yet, all Anglo countries have this system, and most of them have at least 3-4 large parties plus some minor and regional parties. ”
Nitpick: Australia and NZ use forms of proportional representation. I think US, Canada and UK are the only Western countries that still use FPTP plurality.
A possible way to discuss the ruling elites while using Taqqiyah:
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2010/08/mandarins-intellectual-elite-make-lousy.html
(…)
But in modern societies, the Mandarins have progressively taken over the leadership.
People ‘like me’ run things; the military leadership (unless they are themselves mandarins – as increasingly is the case – and servile to political correctness) are officially feared, hated and despised; indeed any aspirant for power who is not ‘an intellectual’ is officially feared, hated and despised.
Fritz Ringer’s books was a revelation because he described a familiar and recent society that had indeed been a mandarinate – and this was Germany in the nineteenth century and leading up to the first and second world wars. Germany was at that time the academic intellectual centre of the West.
And ‘yet’ the mandarinate had been a disaster – leading to two world wars and National Socialism and also (ironically) to the eclipse of the German mandarins – who were purged virtually overnight in 1933 (only a few obedient Nazi mandarins were allowed to stay – like Martin Heidegger).
(…)
Since reading Ringer, when my eyes were opened, my experience has hardened into conviction that – as a generalization – mandarins make very useful servants but very bad leaders. Good professors make bad kings.
The main problem is, I think, that mandarins are expert at ignoring common sense reality and focusing on abstraction.
Mandarins live ‘in culture’ – they are ‘Kultur’ experts. Culture is the source of their expertise and prestige – culture comes between mandarins and common sense.
(…)
When mandarins have closed the loop between education, media and power; they are hermetically sealed from alternative perspectives – change can only arise from within the loop, and this change will tend to bolster the power of the mandarinate, and be directed against their enemies in the natural military leadership.
***
So, once they have taken-over, the mandarinate is uniquely unreformable by argument and experience.
And that is the present situation in the West.
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/07/bracken-cw2-cube-mapping-meta-terrain.html
Some doomer porn by Travis McGee of freakistan. I think it pretty much details the situation from a non-WN position.
I don’t think the libkids can climb down from their “anti-racism” position. They put their communist sympathies down the memory hole, but I think race traitor brainwashing has left them stuck in the tar pits of politics.
And all I can say is thanks since we will always have someone to blame for every problem that our people face.
Overall, I think this is a good article Mr. White.
I think the WN movement is now beginning to get down to some nitty gritty on details that are going to make a difference on who is going to be with us and who is ultimatley going to want wait for the next bus, so to speak.
One thing, there is a underlying assumption in all discourse on this subject: namely that the individual states are somehow better than THE State in their governing, laws and enforcement, more to our likeing. I am not at all sure this is the case. In fact, I am not at all sure most people are really all that anti-authoritarian, draconian and what these “core values” of the people actually are in practice. They are advertised as “good things” to be desired, but I wonder.
One commenter has recently called the US a “3000 mile wide Jim Jones cult.” The thing I am starting to worry about is if the growing movement of the people is actually seeking to convert a 3000 mile wide Jim Jones cult into a 3000 mile wide concentration camp.
“Some doomer porn by Travis McGee of freakistan. I think it pretty much details the situation from a non-WN position.”
Travis’s is better known as Matthew Bracken, author of the “Enemies Foreign and Domestic” trilogy. The future history begins with a empowered FedGov using a false flag operation to bring on the clampdown. The second volume is set in a semi-autonomous state of Aztlan in New Mexico. He draws a convincing picture of LaRaza persecution and pillage of Whites unlucky enough to be stuck in Aztlan.
It is not a WN-based fantasy, as Covington’s books, for instance, clearly are. On the other hand it is blissfully free of retarded neo-Nazi canibals and other absurd anti-white stereotypes.
What’s interesting about it is that the protagonists are more or less Tea Party patriot types. They are forced to experience the saying “you may not care about race, but race cares about you”. Repeatedly.
It is very easy for me to believe that Travis is practicing Taqqiyah himself, and his written a very nice, believable beginners guide to “why WN”, in the form of an action novel. It’s a great book to get people started along the path to thinking outside the box. And entertaining at the same time.
“It is not a WN-based fantasy, as Covington’s books, for instance, clearly are. On the other hand it is blissfully free of retarded neo-Nazi canibals and other absurd anti-white stereotypes. ”
Yeah, like William W. Johnstone’s Ashes series was. Johnstone was a perfect example of how the Right Wing is so easily propagandized into anti-white indoctrination.
Brutus: “One thing, there is a underlying assumption in all discourse on this subject: namely that the individual states are somehow better than THE State in their governing, laws and enforcement, more to our likeing. ”
I agree. I was thinking about this on my way to work after writing the above. (By the way, I am a committed white slave, 72 hrs/wk, top 10% taxed to death, for perspective).
I follow what I would call a “coalition.” It includes Dominionists, Kinists, N. Anarchists, militia nuts, survivalists/preppers, Secessionists, Paleos, Economic gurus, and, of course, WN’s. We all have a couple of things in common (besides the obvious): We believe in something – something greater than ourselves, in something we like to think of as “our people.” Personally, I struggle the most with the WN’s because of arguable reasons as to whether they believe in anything great enough to risk personal harm. but aside from that, the believing, or “mythos” part was the “nail on the head” part of the Codevilla article that I took home.
I don’t see my state, the corruptocracy that is SC seceding into an organic entity with the same borders. Alvin Green is our (D) candidate and a Sikh is our new governor.
If I had a full time job doing this, I would unify the above groups, rather than spending time trying to peel off fat baby-booming tea partiers. This would be a national network with individual organic communities, but each offering a collective expertise. Such a group would be very motivated to counter TPTB. This is a group than can sprint like a hare. Have you ever see a motivated church respond to a tragedy of a loved one? It happens that day, and massively.
My best guess is that we don’t have our own wealthy elite to finance a venture. We have some dusty old baggage. The majority of us are in bondage to our employers and mortgages. Obviously, I am admitting I don’t have the answers, but would love to hear some insight. I guess that’s why we hang out here. We know that we have a hold on the thread, we just need to figure out how to pull and unravel the whole stinkin’ hairshirt.
Mike
The approaching the point at which more than half of the population is dependent on the government is definitely an issue. I think that’s the plan of the left to reach this point, but a large part of white America won’t go quietly.
To be clear from the outset, I’m a let a thousand flowers bloom guy. Go for it. We may have 999 failures, but that might be worth it in order to gain one vitally important success.
Having said that, my criticism of eschewing our white nationalist beliefs in favor of something resembling a “Limbaugh Method” is that, obviously, Limbaugh is already doing his thing at a far larger scale than we could ever hope to. His audience is enormous, numbering many, many millions. His approach does not require our help. I can understand how, in some particular cases such as infiltration of a small group, it might be appropriate to tone it down. But in general? It would be a disaster.
The job of white nationalists is not to tone it down, but to make our message better and more attractive. Our job is to radicalize and evangelize, not blend in.
Let Limbaugh do his own thing. Instead, we are needed in the task that only we can accomplish: the creation and spread of revolutionary ideas. If we don’t do the Limbaugh thing (or whatever mainstream personality that you might have in mind), who will? Limbaugh will. However, if we don’t create and spread a revolutionary vision, who will? Nobody.
I have personally observed the spread of libertarian ideas over the course of the last two decades. When I was a college kid, “libertarian” was a weird word, and finding a person who identified as one was like finding a needle in a haystack. Then, over the years, I saw the word popping up more and more in mainstream publications. I began to hear more and more people using the term to describe themselves. How did that happen? Did the libertarians water down their message and concentrate on infiltration? Not really. They instead kept spreading their ideas, pounding away (yes, often as keyboard commandos), and gradually the ideas spread. They gained adherents.
As the ideas ripple out from the core, many people will hold them in watered down form. But that is a consequence of the spread, not an indication of what got the process going.
Libertarianism is a wrong headed philosophy that could never appeal to more than a minority of people, at least in hardcore form. Ethno-nationalism, on the other hand, has the potential to capture a far greater share of the white population (or any population, for that matter). It’s natural, and historically there have been many massive ethnonational movements, and no massive libertarian ones. If the libertarians can spread their somewhat sensible, somewhat wacky ideas, then we can too.
Point is, a relatively small group doesn’t spread its ideas by blending in and watering down. It gets swallowed up that way. It instead spreads its message by first creating attractive ideas that actually have legs, and then by the hard work of getting those ideas in front of as many eyeballs as possible. Some of the those eyeballs will accept only part of the message, hence the “watering down” effect…but that is not the engine.
Once you have a critical mass of adherents, the infiltration of various institutions takes care of itself. You have enough people, and some are going to operate in the mainstream political parties. It’s inevitable. Once you have enough people who adhere to a given worldview, there are going to be plenty of warm bodies doing all sorts of things. Libertarians are popping up in all kinds of places now. Did the libertarian movement infiltrate Kentucky? Of course not, yet that’s where the action is right now. They DID attempt to infiltrate New Hampshire…and nothing. There’s a lesson there.
Don’t misunderstand me: there will be no long march through the institutions for us. Our enemies won’t allow that. But when our ideas spread far enough, there will be plenty of warm bodies doing all sorts of things, and not under central direction either. Whatever can be infiltated will be. But at the end of the day, if this movement isn’t radical enough to challenge the System instead of just working within it, our cause will be lost.
The libertarian movement is actually a good example of what I was talking about in my post. What good did the Libertarian Party ever do? Did any Libertarian Party candidates ever get elected? It wasn’t until Ron Paul’s run in the GOP primary for President (the campaign began in 2007) that the movement really picked up steam and became a force to be reckoned with. If Ron Paul had instead decided to take the Libertarian or Constitution Party nomination and run that way, he would never have picked up nearly as much traction, and would continue to be marginalized.
H. Rock White: “What good did the Libertarian Party ever do? Did any Libertarian Party candidates ever get elected?”
With all due respect, you’re missing the point. It is undeniable that the Libertarian Party has been unsuccessful at getting candidates elected to major office. That is not its value. What it did accomplish is more fundamental: it greatly assisted in creating a lot of libertarians. It helped create a real libertarian identity and facilitated the spread of libertarian ideas. Instead of just being a few scattered cranks and oddballs, libertarians became a MOVEMENT of cranks and oddballs. (sorry, couldn’t help myself)
This is similar to the influece of earlier third parties of the Left – they ultimately failed as parties but were successful in spreading ideas and gaining adherents. Many, many people were influenced by the Libertarian Party’s efforts, even though they themselves either never became a party member or, in the alternative, abandoned the party. The spinoffs of former Libertarian Party members are everywhere: from the Cato Institute to Lew Rockwell. The point is that there was a real movement with a real identity. It was self aware and conscious. The fact that the party itself never accomplished much in terms of gaining major office is beside the point.
Only when the ideas had reached a certain critical mass (and the broader circumstances were favorable) could something like the Ron Paul phenomenon have happened in 2008. It could not have happened twenty years ago, for the simple reason that there just weren’t enough libertarians around. Trust me, I was on the ground. I know. Back then, libertarians were viewed by most people as Martians, just as white nationalists are today. There is only one way to change that, and all the foot stomping and make believe in the world will not make it otherwise. Anything else is putting the cart before the horse.
If the small number of libertarians back in the seventies or eighties had simply kept their views to themselves and failed to develop a viable identity of their own, we would have never heard of these people. They would have gone precisely nowhere. Libertarians would still be, in practical terms, Martians. Ignore what I’m talking about, and white nationalists will remain Martians as well.
Good luck with that project.
“Love of drama is a great enemy of true vision.”
-Bertrand Russell
TS, I think what you’re talking about applies more about media organs.
I don’t think starting a separate political party really helps, for example the ‘Reform Party’ and ‘Populist Party’ just fizzled out and never generated anything long term. Just a waste of time, energy, and resources which could have been better used on media organs and activist groups.
Also, with the media organs, you have to make sure they can actually draw people who might otherwise listen to Limbaugh, and not draw in people who enjoy and are attracted to the ‘Martian status’. Both the WN and libertarian movements have had a problem with people who revel in the ‘Martian status’, and for the most part these people proved to be more of an impediment than anything else.
Hunter Wallace:”Good luck with that project.”
It was my understanding that, until recently, this was your project. Is this official confirmation that it no longer is?
Transpotter is spot on.
Trainspotter,
You have argued in favor of creating a “compelling” and “revolutionary vision” to motivate White Nationalists. The internet is a big place. What’s stopping you?
Hunter, I notice how you completely evaded my rather straightforward and substantive question, this after inviting it by making a snide remark out of the blue. Impressive.
As to your question, I’ll answer: nothing in particular is “stopping me.” The purpose of my commenting here was to help contribute to what I mistakenly believed was the purpose of this website: the development and spread of white nationalist ideas. Making those ideas more attractive and more appealing, and facilitating their spread. How difficult is that to understand, especially given that you have said as much yourself?
But don’t worry, Hunter. You’re right, the “internet is a big place.” Too big to suffer childish, disingenuous nonsense for long. Right now, the only thing giving OD whatever credibility it has left is that there are still some excellent contributors/commenters here. How quickly you’ll lose them is anybody’s guess. If what you are hinting at is an impending ban, there is no need to pick childish squabbles in order to justify it. It’s your site, continue to run it into the ground as you please.
Trainspotter,
You keep posting these long comments about how a “revolutionary vision” is needed to inspire the masses. I’m just wondering what is stopping you from creating this “revolutionary vision” seeing as how you are its biggest advocate. Nothing that I can tell.
To answer your question directly, I didn’t create this website to articulate any “new vision” of the White Nationalist future. I took for granted that a consensus had developed around the ideal of a White ethnostate in North America.
The thrust of my work here has been to translate that ideal into reality: through creating a White Nationalist media outlet, knitting together a White Nationalist blogosphere, creating state-based networks that could grow into grassroots political organizations.
I never said a “Jew-free, White ethnostate” was my idea. As far as I was concerned, that vision alone was sufficient to inspire action, as it had in our case.
What “childish, disingenuous nonsense” are you referring to? Isn’t that just another way of saying you are angry because I pointed out the obvious?
You want a “revolutionary vision” to inspire the masses, you want action in the real world, you want a White ethnostate, you want to expel the Jews … but you are content to let someone else do all the heavy lifting and make all the sacrifices.
Is that fair?
I don’t think so.
It sounds like a rotten deal to me.
Note: The idea of banning you never crossed my mind. I was just wondering what was stopping you from doing the “intellectual work” that you claim is so desperately needed.
If you create the revolutionary vision, I would be more than happy to publish it. Until that happens, I don’t see the point of discussing this further.
Don’t feed the trolls! Are you guys new to the internet or what?
Anyway, I loved this article and I wanted to read part one but I can’t find a link to it.
This is exactly the strategy that needs to be followed.
This libertarian example it seems to me just proves the article all the more correct. The rules say there can only be two parties. Third party politics was a waste of the libertarian party’s time for decades. Nothing happened until the internet came along and they were able to get out their message to non-libertarians in the other two parties that didn’t want to be weird and different and separate from everyone else but that wanted real political change. They were willing to work incrementally towards a goal rather than be the all or nothing libertarian or the one that doesn’t vote because it “legitimizes the system”. The other thing was that the logical consistency of it appealed to the idealism of young people who are always seeking an ideology or to purify their current one. It’s hard to say they promoted their ideas even. It’s more like a bunch of young white (non-libertarian) males on the internet found libertarian ideas and plastered them all over the place. Now no one under 35 in the GOP is hostile to libertarian ideals.
So suddenly everything changes. For some reason, most elections are pretty close, so a small percentage can tip the scale. Libertarian leaning people controlled say 5% (or who knows how much) of the GOP and everything changed. Ron Paul beats Guilliani in a state priamary for president, his son wins a senate primary by a landslide, and on down the line. Apparently 5% of one of the parties that controls the country is a lot better than 100% of the party that has zero control in a two party system.
Do you think Ron Paul would have been in congress forever on the libertarian ticket?
Another thing is that we don’t have the luxury of the 50-100 years it would take to turn everyone into a WN if that would even be possible. The problem is, we have to take steps to save ourselves in the meantime. By then, it will mostly be over. Once everyone is educated and WN, then what? Well, we pass pretty much the same laws we would have while we were infiltrating the parties. We can’t wait, we have to act now on immigration due to the demographics. The thing is, everyone is already on board about doing something. Even blacks! Infiltrate the party and keep the Lindsey Grahms from ever making it past the sign up sheet. Imagine if you were a delegate at the local level and a young Lindsey Graham is running for county commissioner. You stand up and ask him a question after his speech and expose his weak position on immigration and a long anti-white political career is prevented from ever starting. It didn’t feel like Back to the Future at the time but it changed the course of history.
It’s the same thing with us. For a long time, we’ve had a bunch of people that wanted to be offensive to others and would rather cover their body in swastika tatttoos and think how tough they are than work for real political change.
There’s also a false idea going around here that infiltrating a party saps 100% of one’s WN advocacy resources. In reality, you attend a couple meetings a month, get to know people, make a couple friends, go to some rallies, and you’re one of the party hacks that helps choose candidates and the party platform. It’s really easy.
I’m telling you, this stuff is decided by a tiny number of old people that go to a meeting once a month. If you show up to this stuff and you’re under thirty and active, you’ll be the golden boy in no time.
Hunter,
I never said a “Jew-free, White ethnostate” was my idea. As far as I was concerned, that vision alone was sufficient to inspire action, as it had in our case.
That is such preposterous bullshit!
By your own account you reflected for years and years and years on the sorts of …brace yourself… ideas that finally led you to embrace that vision.
Trainspotter understands that the man on the street will never do that; he understands that it’s your job to get him to go along with your ideas, to support your ends (at whatever level of participation), despite his never quite fully grasping their dimensions.
Now, if “Jew-free, White ethnostate!” were enough it, well, it’d be enough. A man would hear about it and a man would be inspired to act (doing what? is another question a trainspotter presumably would like to see answer developed to), just like he (allegedly) did in the good old days.
But “Jew-free, White ethnostate” can’t do that. It’s woefully inadequate. “A Jew-free what what? What the hell is that? And what the hell can that do for me?” is what it mostly inspires. At least for now. So you’re forced to flesh it out — what, who, where, when, why, how? All of that adds up to a vision, hopefully a “compelling” one, compelling enough to be “revolutionary.”
You want a “revolutionary vision” to inspire the masses, you want action in the real world, you want a White ethnostate, you want to expel the Jews … but you are content to let someone else do all the heavy lifting and make all the sacrifices.
I don’t know where that came from. Personally, I don’t like trainspotter very much at all; I think he’s a royal prick (which is no biggie, since I think that of 95% of you). But that’s a very inaccurate and a very unfair thing to say.
Michael, here’s a link to part 1, I forgot to include the hyperlink in the article: http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2010/07/24/revolt-of-the-country-class-part-1-drawing-the-battle-lines/
You are very right about it being a group of old people making these decisions, or old ladies in the last city where I lived for a long enough time to get involved. I held one of the bottom rung positions, and they were thrilled to have a younger (under 30) person involved. Also, I got involved before the ‘Ron Paul Revolution’ so I was not viewed as a ‘Ron Paul infiltrator’. Yet even with the hostility to the Ron Paul people, they took over the Republican party of one of the major suburbs, got longtime GOP people into their camp, and very nearly got the district leadership except for what might have been some dodgy vote counting-all within less than a year.
Also, even though all our state delegates to the GOP convention were officially for Romney and McCain (the candidates who won a high enough percent in the primaries to be awarded delegates), about 1/3 of them were actually Ron Paul people, because we organized and went to the caucuses where these delegates were selected. Most of the delegate selection was based on which old lady’s ‘turn’ it was to go and have a vacation.
silver,
1.) How is it a “very inaccurate” and “very unfair” thing to say? Trainspotter has posted almost a dozen times now about the need for a “revolutionary vision” to inspire the masses to action. He has also admitted that nothing is stopping anyone from creating such a vision.
All right, fine.
Go create the “revolutionary vision” then. Go do the “intellectual work” that needs to be done.
If Trainspotter or anyone else is successful in this task, the masses will be imbued with the “revolutionary vision,” and White Nationalists will march forward into the glorious White ethnostate. Problem solved.
If that’s the obvious solution, why are we arguing about the matter? Why aren’t you people creating the “revolutionary vision” and testing it on a target audience?
I’m more than willing to change my mind: create the “revolutionary vision,” test it out, and show me that it works.
2.) Search the archives of this website. Point out exactly where I said that I came up with the idea of a White ethnostate. I don’t recall ever making that statement.
3.) Since when did it become my job to do everything?
4.) Let’s set aside the man in the street. He doesn’t have a dog in this fight. You should answer this question before proceeding any further.
There are already hundreds of thousands of people who claim to be White Nationalists on the internet. Before you make an argument for converting anti-racists to White Nationalism, explain why the tens of thousands of people who subscribe to that point of view are unwilling to do anything in the real world.
If you can’t get the people who are already White Nationalists to do much of anything, what makes you think those you propose to convert will be any different?
I don’t know that the man in the street needs a revolutionary vision, it’s the leaders that need the vision. How many Democrats or Republicans have a vision? Most of them just have interests. How many Communists actually read Karl Marx, or how many Nazis read Mein Kampf? How many of us here became aware because we were swept up by the beauty of the White Nationalist vision, and how many because we were disgusted by the sights of multi-culturalism? All the man in the street needs to know is that he is threatened, and who is threatening him.
Silver: “Personally, I don’t like trainspotter very much at all; I think he’s a royal prick (which is no biggie, since I think that of 95% of you).”
Geez man, that hurts. LOL! I’m a little surprised by the rudeness, but then again, you are a New Yorker, right? In any event, the rest of your post is pretty much spot on.
Hunter: “I’m just wondering what is stopping you from creating this “revolutionary vision” seeing as how you are its biggest advocate. Nothing that I can tell.”
I’ve already given an honest and straightforward answer to this. Was my answer all that difficult to understand?
Hunter: “To answer your question directly, I didn’t create this website to articulate any “new vision” of the White Nationalist future. I took for granted that a consensus had developed around the ideal of a White ethnostate in North America.”
Disingenuous dodge. You were not always an advocate of the white ethnostate. What made you change? Was it white nationalist elves, or white nationalist ideas and arguments?
Hunter: “The thrust of my work here has been to translate that ideal into reality: through creating a White Nationalist media outlet, knitting together a White Nationalist blogosphere, creating state-based networks that could grow into grassroots political organizations.”
Um…much of this involves the spreading of ideas. Yet you ridicule…the spreading of ideas. Makes perfect sense.
Hunter: “I never said a “Jew-free, White ethnostate” was my idea.”
???? Is anyone saying that you originated the idea? What are you talking about? If you are going to make straw men, try coming up with something that makes a little sense.
Hunter: “What “childish, disingenuous nonsense” are you referring to? Isn’t that just another way of saying you are angry because I pointed out the obvious?”
Your entire manner of arguing is disingenuous. You distort and misrepresent. For example, you continue to claim that my position is that if people read philosophy books, they will suddenly be inspired to hit the streets. Absolutely ridiculous. What I am actually talking about is quite simple: white nationalist ideas have to spread in order for the white ethnostate to come about. As long as we are viewed as Martians, people aren’t going to support us. Talk about stating the “obvious,” I don’t see how things can be more obvious than that.
But apparently, according to you, people are going to support the white ethnostate, even though they’ve never heard of it, don’t understand it, and believe that you are a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews. That’s laughably, obviously nuts.
The guy who posts here that is most involved in street activism, Yeoman, regularly spreads defeatism. He believes that we will lose. I’m not terribly surprised by this. Our street activists will continue to get nowhere until our ideas have been successfully spread further into the culture. This should be obvious, but you continue to take issue with it. The proof is in the pudding, Hunter. Why should people rally to something that they’ve never heard of, much less been persuaded of? Why should they rally to something that nobody they respect has ever heard of?
Hunter: “You want a “revolutionary vision” to inspire the masses, you want action in the real world, you want a White ethnostate, you want to expel the Jews … but you are content to let someone else do all the heavy lifting and make all the sacrifices.”
What sacrifices are you talking about? You use a pen name, I use a pen name. You keep claiming that I expect you to make sacrifices, and I’m tired of this false claim. It is a lie. I’ve been polite about this, but since you continue to press the lie, I’ll address it. You aren’t a leader. You don’t look like a leader, you don’t talk like a leader. Those two things MIGHT be corrected, but you have other issues that prevent you from being a leader. This is o.k., by definition the vast majority of people aren’t cut out for leadership. You aren’t an exception to the general rule. So I don’t know where you get the impression that I expect you to get out and man the barricades. I most certainly don’t. Your talent is in writing, or at least was until you started arguing like a Lefty. You write under a pen name, like most people here. Nobody is advocating that you take any risk beyond that. So cut the crap about a “rotten deal.” Yet another example of your disingenuous misrepresentation of my position.
The truth of the matter is simple: until our ideas spread further into the culture, our street activists are going to have a tough time. Perhaps a very charismatic, highly capable guy might beat the odds, but the general rule will hold. That’s the reality of the situation. I’ve been a street activist before, as a libertarian, and I know what I’m talking about. I’ve personally seen how ideas spread, and I’ve also studied historical movements. The patterns are obvious, and it is mighty curious why you continue to deny the obvious, especially when you’ve said as much before.
Using the internet, white nationalists have the opportunity to make our ideas appealing and attractive, and spread them far enough that our street activists will have something to work with. Until that time, don’t be surprised when the guys who take it to the streets keep saying, “We will lose.” Most people don’t rally around Martians.
But here’s the thing, we’re going to win. The ideas are spreading, and there is really nothing that anti-intellectual clowns can do to stop it. They may be able to slow it down a bit, but not stop it. Sorry, too late.
Test comment.
Why was my response to Hunter not posted?
It got stuck in the filter.
Trainspotter,
1.) As a commentator, there is nothing stopping you from creating the “revolutionary vision,” and I haven’t done anything to impede your effort here. If you created the “revolutionary vision,” I would be more than happy to publish it.
What else can I do?
2.) As I said before, I never took credit for coining the idea of a White ethnostate, anywhere on this website. I simply took the existing White Nationalist minimum (a White ethnostate without Jews) and started promoting the idea.
Now, it is certainly true I haven’t always called myself a White Nationalist. In fact, I emphatically denied the label for years. I preferred to call myself a “racialist.” Only recently did I start identifying with the White Nationalist movement.
How come?
The simple answer is that my impression of the White Nationalist movement was that it was hopelessly dysfunctional. I thought White Nationalists had plenty of good ideas, but I didn’t want to be associated with that label.
I changed my mind because I thought things were starting to change. I saw positive developments going on within the movement. That’s why I decided to throw my hat into the ring.
3.) Experience keeps challenging the efficacy of ideas. I know plenty of brilliant people who talk about ideas and do nothing else. Similarly, I know plenty of people who are constantly acting in the real world, but who aren’t particularly bright.
4.) I was responding to silver’s post above.
5.) Your position is that White Nationalists need a “revolutionary vision” to take action in the real world. Of the people I know who do act, I can’t think of any who would fit this description. They are most ordinary people with only the vaguest idea that they are “losing their country.”
Instead of arguing about this “revolutionary vision” any further, a hypothetical which doesn’t even exist, I have suggested you create the “revolutionary vision” and test it yourself on a target audience. If your method of changing minds was successful, I would find your evidence persuasive.
Look at this way: if you truly believe a “revolutionary vision” is necessary to inspire action, why are you arguing the matter? If that’s the solution, what is arguing about it supposed to accomplish?
6.) I think it is more likely that people who have never heard of a White ethnostate, but who are a defiant pissed off mob that acts in the real world (like the Sons of Liberty), can inadvertently stumble into a revolutionary scenario than people who do nothing but read books and talk on the internet all day will act to translate their fantasy world into reality.
7.) Yeoman is pessimistic about White Nationalism because he acts in the real world and has taken the measure of those who don’t. As I became more active myself, I have noticed that my own pessimism and disillusionment has grown.
Why do I take issue with the notion that our “ideas have to be spread” before the White Nationalist movement gains momentum? Because there are hundreds of thousands of people who have already been exposed to those ideas. Because there are tens of thousands of people who are already wedded to the vision of a White ethnostate.
Of those hundreds of thousands of fellow travelers and the tens of thousands of hardcore White Nationalists, there are maybe a few hundred who do anything outside of cyberspace, and a few dozen within some of our biggest states.
Why should anyone have faith in converting the masses when those who have already been converted (i.e., people such as yourself) won’t do anything but post anonymous comments in cyberspace?
8.) We’ve had this discussion before.
In the last discussion, you argued that White Nationalism has to “move in stages,” and that in the “leaner years” a hardcore vanguard has to act in the real world, and that the people who made those “sacrifices” should be supported by those who refuse to do so.
Quite obviously, you don’t consider yourself someone who is willing to take action in the “leaner years,” but once other people have done all the heavy lifting, broken into the mainstream at great personal expense to themselves, then you will be ready to jump on the train.
In other words, when it is safe to be a “White Nationalist,” as when it was safe to be a “National Socialist” in the 1930s, then you will “join the party,” so to speak.
9.) Let’s clear something up: I am not a leader of the White Nationalist movement, don’t claim to be a leader of the White Nationalist movement, and have zero interest in being a leader of the White Nationalist movement.
I made that crystal clear when I resigned my position at TOQ last month.
10.) Being a “street activist” in the White Nationalist movement is probably the most thankless job in the world. I know exactly where Andrew Yeoman is coming from.
– You will expose yourself to social ostracism and employment discrimination while your anonymous critics in cyberspace refuse to do so.
– You will be attacked by anonymous people in cyberspace, not by your avowed enemies, but by people who claim to be on your side, after you stood up for them.
– You will attempt to rally the troops, but no one will show up.
– You are going to waste your time, your life, and your resources when you could be doing other things.
– Then you are going to be stabbed in the back after making those sacrifices.
It is the quickest, most surefire road to disillusionment and resignation.
11.) The “truth of the matter” is that White Nationalist ideas will continue to spread in cyberspace, as Don Black at Stormfront has found out, and as he will tell you, even if you reach millions of people nothing will come of it.
Most of the people who browse these websites are merely entertaining themselves. Whereas Joe Six Pack watches sports and sitcoms, White Nationalists entertain themselves by posting anonymous comments in cyberspace. It is just another way to pass the time.
The facts on the ground are not going to change: White Nationalists don’t act in the real world because there are social and economic penalties for doing so. It’s that simple.
They make the calculation that if they show up at some event that an anti-racist will snap a photo and they will lose their jobs. No “revolutionary vision” is going to change that.
12.) What’s actually going to happen is that ideas will spread on the internet, but there will be no outlet for translating those ideas into action. So there will be no momentum. Without momentum, people will continue to conclude our situation is hopeless and drop out of the movement.
White Nationalism will continue to grow horizontally: the people who agree with the ideology will increase, but that will be the extent of it.
In contrast, the Tea Party movement grows vertically: it will attract more followers and become more successful because it produces the action that generates the momentum necessary to push forward.
13.) If they wanted to, White Nationalists could win. Even Harold Covington’s scenario has some degree of plausibility.
The fatal flaw is that White Nationalists don’t have the character to stand up for their beliefs in the real world.
If you took a snapshot of the White Nationalist movement in 2010 and compared it to a snapshot taken in 2000 and an earlier one in 1990, the result would be identical.
Nothing has changed: it is still people chatting in cyberspace, it is still a small pool of people viciously competing over limited financial resources, it is still the same circular firing squad, it is still a zero sum game where one man’s success inspires the undying hatred and animosity of his competitors, it still has the same enormous turnover rate, and it is still hopelessly dysfunctional and disorganized.
Hunter: “Nothing has changed: it is still people chatting in cyberspace, it is still a small pool of people viciously competing over limited financial resources, it is still a zero sum game where one man’s success inspires the undying hatred and animosity of his competitors, it still has the same enormous turnover rate, and it is still hopelessly dysfunctional and unorganized.”
You’re absolutely right. Nothing has changed because you have the same group of social retards and self-serving pricks that are presented as the face of “White Nationalism.”
If Jared Taylor is a White Nationalist, and the freaks of the NSM are all White Nationalists, then the general public is presented with the mentally daunting task of separating antics and mental disorders from rational and reasonable dialogue/data. Not only will most people not go out of their way to make a distinction between the two, but they will more than likely fixate on the lowest common denominator and cast both in the same light.
By not being extremely vocal in the intellectual, philosophical, and practical differences and divide that is present, you leave it up to the public to make the distinctions, or you leave it to an outside entity. An outside entity like the SPLC, for example, will do whatever it takes to make a Jared Taylor looks as dangerous and kooky as any costume clown; and the general public just doesn’t have the desire or attention span to properly distinguish between the two on their own.
Most “leaders” are so afraid of isolating themselves(and potentially losing $$$) by shunning weak individuals that they will purposely allow dysfunctionals to get close to them, just to present a wafer-thin facade of unity.
Hunter: “The fatal flaw is that White Nationalists don’t have the character to stand up for their beliefs in the real world.”
The fatal flaw is that most White Nationalists don’t even know what they stand for, or at least can’t agree on what they should stand for. One guy might stand for simplicity in thought and action(a White homeland and nothing more). Another guy might stand up for his 200 point version of what being a White Nationalist means…..and then there are the Nordicists.
A theoretical White Nationalist is almost devoid of anything tangible. The views and proclamations have run the gamut, from rounding up all Jews, to shipping all blacks to Africa, to a worldwide race war, to killing/imprisoning all homosexuals, to instituting a theocracy, to lowering women to second class citizens, etc. This isn’t a united front to show how diverse White Nationalism is; it just shows how fucking insane it is.
This is long even by my standards, but much of it is just your own quoted words.
Hunter: “As a commentator, there is nothing stopping you from creating the “revolutionary vision,” and I haven’t done anything to impede your effort here.”
One purpose of my posting here was to contribute toward the effort of making white nationalist ideas more attractive and compelling. I see this as largely a collaborative effort, and that requires a website that isn’t anti-intellectual. Under your stewardship, this website no longer qualifies for that most essential task, but perhaps it will retain value in other areas. We’ll see.
Hunter: “I simply took the existing White Nationalist minimum (a White ethnostate without Jews) and started promoting the idea.”
I see. So you are promoting a white nationalist idea, but insult those who wish to promote white nationalist ideas. Makes perfect sense. Let’s see how your “minimum” works out, without it having been fleshed out. The proof is in the pudding. If only it were as simple as saying “I want an ethnostate.” It’s truly amazing that nobody has given you one yet.
Hunter: “I changed my mind because I thought things were starting to change. I saw positive developments going on within the movement. That’s why I decided to throw my hat into the ring.”
Yes, and what exactly was changing? Was there all of a sudden great street activism? Nope. Great organization? Nope. What changed was that the intellectual wing of white nationalism started to get its act together, spreading compelling ideas that are appealing to more people. So what do you do? Attack this very group of people, and attempt to disrupt the increasing momentum.
Hunter: “I know plenty of brilliant people who talk about ideas and do nothing else. Similarly, I know plenty of people who are constantly acting in the real world, but who aren’t particularly bright.”
Really!?! You don’t say. I would never have guessed. Dude, cut the nonsense. Nobody is saying that somehow brilliant people will be more likely to act. The point is that our ideas must spread further into the culture, so that we don’t appear as Martians. It really is that simple, and your attempts to misdirect and obfuscate aren’t working.
Hunter: “Of the people I know who do act, I can’t think of any who would fit this description. They are most ordinary people with only the vaguest idea that they are “losing their country.”
Yep, and are they working for a white ethnostate? Nope. You might want to consider why that is. But nah, it’s much easer to spread misrepresenations, isn’t it?
Hunter: “If your method of changing minds was successful, I would find your evidence persuasive.”
What is this about *my method*? You act like I’m making some esoteric claim here. I’m not. The simple reality is that until our ideas get further into the culture, we will be viewed as Martians. I hardly coined this notion myself, any sentient individual remotely interested in creating a successful movement would understand this. People don’t rally around Martians. You keep saying that there are several hundred thousand white nationalists. That’s approximately 1 out of every 600 to 800 whites. To the rest you appear as a Martian, and many have been conditioned to see you as a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews. Good luck in the street with those numbers. You’re going to really accomplish great things, the street is ready for you. No need to do any preparatory work.
Hunter: “I think it is more likely that people who have never heard of a White ethnostate, but who are a defiant pissed off mob that acts in the real world (like the Sons of Liberty), can inadvertently stumble into a revolutionary scenario than people who do nothing but read books and talk on the internet all day will act to translate their fantasy world into reality.”
Great, so go find us this mythical mob that is going to give us an ethnostate even though they’ve never heard of it. Bring back a unicorn while you are at it, maybe throw in a couple of elves. Dude, I wish it were that simple. It isn’t. This is serious business in front of us, and you aren’t serious at all.
Hunter: “Yeoman is pessimistic about White Nationalism because he acts in the real world and has taken the measure of those who don’t. As I became more active myself, I have noticed that my own pessimism and disillusionment has grown.”
Exactly. You put the cart before the horse, you hit the street when it isn’t ready (and heap contempt upon those who are attempting to ready the street), then you come back and spread defeatism. You suffer the delusion that, despite the fact that only one person in 800 on the street has any idea what you are talking about, that somehow it’s going to be a rousing success. It boggles the mind.
Hunter: “In the last discussion, you argued that White Nationalism has to “move in stages,” and that in the “leaner years” a hardcore vanguard has to act in the real world, and that the people who made those “sacrifices” should be supported by those who refuse to do so.”
Those people who go public should be supported, however, I’ve not advocating that anybody new go public. In fact, I’ve specifically advocated that you DON’T go public. You obviously have no idea what you are doing, you have no comprehension of how successful movements operate, and your putting the cart before the horse is just going to get people hurt, while accomplishing absolutely nothing of value.
Hunter: “Quite obviously, you don’t consider yourself someone who is willing to take action in the “leaner years,” but once other people have done all the heavy lifting, broken into the mainstream at great personal expense to themselves, then you will be ready to jump on the train.”
I’m tired of this false charge, so now I’ll be blunt. You are a liar. I’ve clearly stated, multiple times, that this is not my position. I’ve been polite about it, but that doesn’t cause you to desist from the lie. I’ve not advocating that anyone go public. Right now, the most important thing is to prepare the cultural ground so that those who do go public will have something to work with. The most important work is spreading the ideas so that we aren’t Martians. Nobody here needs to go public in order to that. You use a pen name, I use a pen name. Most people here do. We can still help develop and spread ideas, not follow some clown into public who has no idea what he is doing. The day for going public will come, but it’s not here yet.
However, for those who insist upon doing so, they should be supported. I’ve tried to do this financially. I would only advocate someone going public at this particular point in time if they had a damn good reason for doing so. Clowning around isn’t one of them. Doing stupid shit that doesn’t help the movement at all, in fact probably hurts it, isn’t one of them.
Hunter: “Being a “street activist” in the White Nationalist movement is probably the most thankless job in the world. I know exactly where Andrew Yeoman is coming from.”
So do I. As a libertarian, I was a street activist for years. I know how utterly useless it is unless the cultural ground has been prepared. I also know how much easier and more effective it becomes once the cultural ground has been prepared. It’s like night and day. Otherwise, you’re a Martian, or in the case of white nationalists, a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews. By your own numbers, maybe 1 person in 800 has any idea what you are talking about. If you want to repeatedly stick your finger into the electrical socket, have at it. I’ve advised you not to, because it is a waste of time. Why are you so anxious to get other people to engage in activities that have no positive value, and will only get them damaged? I know what works and what doesn’t – and so do many others, this knowledge isn’t unique to me. Instead of dealing with reality, you’d rather whine and make false accusations. I’m interested in what works. The street activists are not going to have anything to work with until the intellectual elements of white nationalism do their job. Those are the facts, and your faux chest thumping doesn’t change them.
Hunter: “The “truth of the matter” is that White Nationalist ideas will continue to spread in cyberspace, as Don Black at Stormfront has found out, and as he will tell you, even if you reach millions of people nothing will come of it.”
Ridiculous. The entire history of successful movements says otherwise. This is why it is important to keep people like you away from the street. You can’t handle it, and it causes you to go into despair and defeatism mode. We’re not going to be defeated, we’re going to win – but only if we can prevent people like you from misdirecting others, convincing them to put the cart before the horse, and getting them damaged and burned out for no gain whatsoever.
Hunter: ” Whereas Joe Six Pack watches sports and sitcoms, White Nationalists entertain themselves by posting anonymous comments in cyberspace. It is just another way to pass the time.”
Maybe, but again we see your disconnect from the real world (as much as you like to disparage keyboard commandos). Only a very small portion of conservatives, liberals, libertarians, you name it, get involved at a meaningful level. White nationalism is no different. The fact that only a small portion of Americans were involved in the War of Independence didn’t stop them from getting their own country, and it didn’t stop liberalism from destroying it. A movement doesn’t have to get everyone active, but it does need to reach a critical mass where it is no longer viewed as a Martian exploratory force. There is a distinction here, one which I am sure you will ignore.
Hunter: ” White Nationalism will continue to grow horizontally: the people who agree with the ideology will increase, but that will be the extent of it.”
Says a guy who has no clue about how movements work.
Hunter: Hunter: “If they wanted to, White Nationalists could win. Even Harold Covington’s scenario has some degree of plausibility.”
Armed revolution would require relatively few people, but even there you need a vision and a critical mass. Covington, with his fictional novels, has probably done more to create a vision than anybody else in recent years, but it’s still not there. The vast majority of white nationalists don’t buy into it, including me. At least Covington is trying, but I don’t see you moving to the Northwest.
Hunter: “If you took a snapshot of the White Nationalist movement in 2010 and compared it to a snapshot taken in 2000 and an earlier one in 1990, the result would be identical.”
Not true. What we are seeing is the maturing process of white nationalism, the gradual development of appealing ideas, and the spread of those ideas. The foundation is there for good things to happen. At one time it appeared that you were going to be a part of that. Now it appears that you won’t be.
Jared Taylor is a good example of the circular firing squad.
A few days ago, Taylor made an appearance on Russia Today. I believe the YouTube video was posted here.
Immediately, the usual suspects lit into Taylor across half a dozen websites. He’s a Jew plant. He’s controlled by the Jews. He’s a worthless conservative.
It’s an Iron Law of White Nationalism that whenever anyone does anything positive or worthwhile to expose our ideas to a wider audience they come under immediate attack by other White Nationalists.
Apparently, another one stuck in the filter.
Hunter: “Jared Taylor is a good example of the circular firing squad.”
This whole internecine struggle resulting from your attack on white nationalist “intellectuals” is a particularly great example of the circular firing squad.
Trainspotter,
There is nothing stopping you from creating the “revolutionary vision.” If you created the “revolutionary vision,” I was willing to publish it here, as a friendly gesture to you. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. Maybe I am wrong.
If you don’t want to publish the “revolutionary vision” on this website, there is nothing stopping you from publishing it somewhere else. The internet is a big place.
You keep saying the “revolutionary vision” is the solution to our problems, but it seems you would rather make a rhetorical point than seriously follow your own advice.
If that is the case, the White Nationalist movement is worse off from it.
When I first heard of White Nationalism, the National Alliance was thriving and Stormfront was a small vBulletin forum. The CofCC and League of the South had chapters across the Upper South.
Ten years later, the NSM is the public face of the White Nationalist movement. The organizations which were around when I got started don’t exist anymore. Those that are still around have generally lost members.
From an organizational standpoint, White Nationalism is worse off in 2010 than 2001, but there are more people (like yourself) reading White Nationalist websites than ever before.
The growth of White Nationalist sites on the internet didn’t translate into real world action. The people who were content to post anonymous comments on WordPress blogs and vBulletin forums were satisfied with doing that and nothing else.
I’m willing to grant your wish.
I will stay away from White Nationalist street activism. I won’t put the cart before the horse anymore. I will follow your advice.
Guess what?
It is your turn now. I’ve given a shot. When you give it a shot and you succeed, I plan to still be around. You can return here in triumph and crow about your newfound success.
Of course that will never happen.
It will never happen because you know as well as I do that you will do nothing but talk and fantasize about the inevitable triumph on the internet while doing nothing to bring it about in reality.
The Tea Party is a successful political movement. In a single year, under the “intellectual leadership” of people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, it has grown from nothing to the support of over 40% of Americans. On the contrary, the White Nationalist movement has been stuck in the same ditch for thirty years.
It just so happens that I am in complete agreement with Harold Covington on this point. Covington himself has identified the reason that White Nationalists have failed to answer his call.
They don’t have the character to win. They don’t have the character – the courage and integrity – to stand up for their beliefs in the real world. While they have read literally thousands of books about philosophy and history, these people tremble at the thought of saying hello to their next door neighbor.
Just the other day Covington was talking about this elaborate fantasy world. At least people who play World of Warcraft don’t confuse it with reality.
What we are seeing is the same scene in the same movie that has been playing on repeat for the last thirty years:
The spread of our ideas, more people agreeing with us, more people entertaining themselves on White Nationalist websites, and no one doing anything in the real world.
If ideas were sufficient to produce action, White Nationalism would have started experiencing explosive vertical growth years ago, as more people than ever before agree with those ideas.
Unfortunately, the people who agree with those ideas – people like you – are unwilling to translate them into reality.
There is a critical difference between White Nationalism and all the other movements cited above: if you are a White Nationalist, you are subjected to social ostracism and employment discrimination.
That reason alone is sufficient to explain why White Nationalism never goes anywhere.
Libertarians don’t have to revolt to break a taboo as powerful as the one we are facing with “racism.” If you are a libertarian, you can swim within the mainstream. If you are a liberal or a conservative, you can swim within the mainstream.
There are already people around on point in these movements. The ordinary person doesn’t have to spring into action.
What we are facing is a system that discriminates against us like the Jim Crow South.
I’m giving you a chance.
We’re going to test this argument of yours.
Go join the “intellectual elements” of White Nationalism and do your job. Go forth and prepare the “cultural ground.” Go create the “revolutionary vision.” Go expose the “revolutionary vision” to your target audience.
You keep saying this works. Show us the money.
Prove it.
Oh wait … if you ever did create the “revolutionary vision” that inspires action, then you would have to act yourself and leave your comfort zone, and you clearly aren’t willing to do that.
So you are going to act in the “leaner years” and not outsource that task to others? I’m calling your bluff. Let’s see your cards.
Like I said above, you are not willing to “go public” in the “leaner years.” You are going to “prepare the cultural ground” by posting anonymous comments on the internet.
Then what are you disputing here? I said above that you are not willing to go public in the “leaner years.” Instead, you believe that other people should be charged with that task and should make all the sacrifices and entail all the hardship that entails.
In the event they are successful, then the so-called day for going public will come, and then you will hop aboard the White Nationalist train.
It is worth noting that nothing seems to have stopped you from being a libertarian street activist for years. Of course that was safe and no risk was involved.
I’ve made my point: you are unwilling to act in the “leaner years,” but are willing to let others bear the the costs of doing so.
When times are hard and standing up for your beliefs is risky, you are unwilling to do anything, but you are willing to hop in the car once someone else does all the hard work of getting it out of the ditch.
I’m learning a lot how successful movements operate here. I’ve learned that doing nothing in the real world, reading the next book, and posting the next anonymous comment is “what works” and will bring about the White ethnostate.
Gosh, it never occurred to me it would be that easy.
Not true.
I was having a good time acting in the real world. I was meeting people who were willing to join us. I was enjoying myself and was full of optimism. You can see this in the videos we posted. I didn’t sound like a defeatist at all. I was planning for the future.
Then … I noticed that I was being attacked for doing this.
I was confounded by this paradox: the more I did to advance the cause; the harder I pushed myself; the more sacrifices I made; the more I stepped up to the plate; the more viciously and consistently I was attacked by other White Nationalists.
Then … the second, the third, and the fourth stab in the back landed in succession.
Then … I had the epiphany.
I had done all that I could do to advance White Nationalism … and that was what I got in return.
Needless to say, I was cured of a number of illusions that day.
A purple unicorn is more likely to appear on my doorstep tomorrow than you are to create the “revolutionary vision” and stand up for your beliefs in the real world.
You already have been exposed to said ideas. Isn’t it interesting they don’t seem to be inspiring you to do anything?
Okay … well create the “revolutionary vision” then. Isn’t that the preparatory work? Go do it for we can all see if it works.
Yes.
In fact, many of them are. Plenty of ordinary Americans and unsophisticated people seem to be willing to act in the real world, unlike some people.
There is no correlation between the number of people reading White Nationalist websites and real world action. There was more real world action before the internet provided the perfect means for indulging in escapism.
That’s true.
It was the “intellectual wing” of White Nationalism that got its act together. I made the mistake of assuming that real world organization and activity would follow this seemingly positive development.
I can’t emphasize enough how much I was mistaken on that point. I was swiftly cured of my illusions. I found out that nothing had changed at all.
The precise reasons which had deterred me from joining White Nationalist organizations and openly affiliating with White Nationalism for almost ten years came roaring back into view.
Straw man.
My position all along has been that ideas are NOT SUFFICIENT to produce action. I have consistently argued that character is also necessary. It is ideas + character that produce action, not ideas alone.
Trainspotter,
You were the one who resurrected this debate for the sixth or seventh time. I don’t even read those websites anymore.
The third, and probably most important, reason why White Nationalism hasn’t gone anywhere is the hostile mainstream media. Ron Paul was appearing on cable news programs during his entire campaign, and he never faced the kind of hostility David Duke does on the rare occasions when they let him appear.
Libertarianism is a Jew-friendly movement founded by and mostly promoted by Jews. Ron Paul is the gentile face of that Jew movement, someone capable of reaching beyond the rabbinical cult that created it.
The one hopeful development is the decline of the mainstream media. That decline and the rise of the internet is why White Nationalism has advanced since 1990. The membership organizations back then were never going to grow into a mass movement so long as the mainstream media and the government were opposed to them.
We now have something we’ve lacked since Jews took over the mass media in the 1920s, a way to reach the White majority. This has only been true for about ten years. It took libertarians 35 years from the founding of their party to get to where the Ron Paul movement could explode, and that was with mainstream media support. Even The New York Times gave favorable coverage to the founding of the party.
What kind of coverage did American Third Position get from the mainstream media?
That’s the difference.
Hunter: “There is nothing stopping you from creating the “revolutionary vision.” If you created the “revolutionary vision,” I was willing to publish it here, as a friendly gesture to you. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. Maybe I am wrong.”
I have made it explicitly clear that I don’t have some sort of comprehensive, prefabricated revolutionary vision that I can give to you. I have made it explicitly clear that I believe that this is a collaborative effort, and requires white nationalists intellectuals to contribute to the project. What is it about this that you can’t understand?
Hunter: “The growth of White Nationalist sites on the internet didn’t translate into real world action.”
Sorry that things don’t move on your time schedule, but welcome to the real world. In a situation like ours, it is not necessarily the case that X increase in overall supporters leads to an equal and immediate increase in real world activism. Do you blame the internet for Pierce’s death, which in turn led to the collapse of that organization? That would be rather silly.
I think what has happened is that people have conlcuded that street activism doesn’t accomplish anything other than provide dandy targets for the System. Even when we have put together a good crowd, it just gets boxed up like a quarantine ward. It seems to be all cost, no payoff, with precious few exceptions. We are, for the time being, a de facto underground movement. Many, many successful political (and religious) movements have had to operate like this. You claim it’s the end of the world, history says it’s not. But being realistic would deny you the opportunity to indulge in expressive individualism and faux chest thumping.
Hunter: “It is your turn now. I’ve given a shot. When you give it a shot and you succeed, I plan to still be around. You can return here in triumph and crow about your newfound success. Of course that will never happen.”
Let me get this straight. You had a clumsy and senseless encounter with Imm, so you’ve done your part. Therefore I, not a collaborative effort of white nationalist intellectuals, must single handedly deliver a winning vision. And if a I don’t, it means that the self-evident assertion that street activism isn’t going to go anywhere as long as we are percieved as Martians is somehow untrue. Makes perfect sense, in bizarro world. Alice, this is getting curiouser and curiouser.
Hunter: “The Tea Party is a successful political movement. In a single year, under the “intellectual leadership” of people like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, it has grown from nothing to the support of over 40% of Americans.”
The Tea Party is tapping into a huge American tradition that precedes Beck and Palin by centuries. Of course, you don’t understand how ideas spread through the culture, so this eludes you.
Hunter: “It just so happens that I am in complete agreement with Harold Covington on this point. Covington himself has identified the reason that White Nationalists have failed to answer his call.”
Yes, if someone doesn’t believe in Covington’s plan, it is because they lack character. If someone doesn’t want to follow you clumsily into some senseless street encounter, it is because they lack character. It couldn’t be because they don’t support the plan. Nah. It’s that they have no character. When a real leader arises, and a real movement develops, and a real struggle occurs, we’ll see who has character and who doesn’t. But right now, none of that exists. You can talk tough and engage in faux chest thumping, and consider yourself brave for “confronting” the oldest, weakest, scrawniest street activist on the planet – Imm – but that doesn’t change the bottom line: until we spread white nationalist ideas further into the culture, we aren’t getting anywhere. When, by your own numbers, only 1 in 800 whites have any idea what we are talking about, the street isn’t going to be a particularly rewarding place. Perhaps there will be a few exceptions, but the general rule holds.
Hunter: “If ideas were sufficient to produce action, White Nationalism would have started experiencing explosive vertical growth years ago, as more people than ever before agree with those ideas.”
Produce WHAT action? What exactly would be effective? If you expect a particular action, you’ve got to show how it would be effective. You don’t do that. You just keep repeating, kind of weirdly, that people should take some sort of undefined action. What exactly? What exactly are they supposed to do on a street where, despite the growth of white nationalism, it is still the case that only 1 in 800 people have any idea what you are talking about, and the System stands ready to mete out punishment in exchange for no gain whatsoever.
Your logic is impeccable: viciously attack the area of white nationalism that is showing growth, and demand instead that people focus their energy on the area that shows no payoffs. You’d make a great businessman.
Hunter: “There is a critical difference between White Nationalism and all the other movements cited above: if you are a White Nationalist, you are subjected to social ostracism and employment discrimination.”
Absolutely, so it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee, instead of claiming that people have no character simply because they refuse to join in senseless activities. Activities that accomplish nothing other than harming them and helping the System. We are a de facto underground movement, if that hasn’t dawned upon you. History is replete with underground movements that achieved victory. We also have powerful technology to spread our ideas, until we have enough to move onto the next stage. But no, you just assure us that we are doomed.
Hunter: ” Go join the “intellectual elements” of White Nationalism and do your job. Go forth and prepare the “cultural ground.”
I thought that was what we were doing here – trying to make white nationalist ideas more appealing and spreading them. Boy was I wrong. That’s the only value this site had, until you initiated the circular firing squad with an absolutely senseless attack on white nationalist intellectuals. If not that, just what ARE you doing? I know what I’m doing, what are YOU doing? What game are you playing?
Hunter: “You keep saying this works. Show us the money. Prove it.”
LOL! Yes, I need to “prove” to you that so long as we are seen as Martians, we won’t achieve much success on the streets. If I need to prove that to you, there would be no point. Honestly, you are beginning to sound like Rain Man, just bad at math.
Hunter: “So you are going to act in the “leaner years” and not outsource that task to others? I’m calling your bluff. Let’s see your cards.”
Outsource what? Act, doing what exactly? I state as plain as day what the deal is, and yet you continue in your quagmire of expressive individualism. Apparently, if someone isn’t engaging in senseless activity, he’s not “acting.” If he’s not strutting about, he’s “outsourcing.” And of course he has no character. But apparently lying and misrepresenting are no barrier to wonderful character.
Hunter: “Like I said above, you are not willing to “go public” in the “leaner years.” You are going to “prepare the cultural ground” by posting anonymous comments on the internet.”
Welcome to reality, Hunter. Welcome to the world of a de facto underground movement. But I am supposed to “go public,” even though it would accomplish nothing except hurt me and help the System. Thanks, dude. You clearly have the best interests of white nationalists at heart. Very touching. And, of course, you don’t even specify what this public action would be, how it would have a meaningful payoff, what it would accomplish. Just go public, engage in expressive individualism, and strut around like a monkey. Sounds superiffic, dude.
Hunter: “I said above that you are not willing to go public in the “leaner years.” Instead, you believe that other people should be charged with that task and should make all the sacrifices and entail all the hardship that entails.”
After this pleasant debate is over, I want absolutely nothing to do with you. If I comment here at all, it won’t be to you (except perhaps to address your lies). This is a bald faced lie. I have never advocated that anybody go public, I’ve only counseled against it. I have said that those who insist upon doing so should be supported, and I’ve tried to do that financially. That’s it. Your critics have repeatedly called into question your basic honesty. I didn’t want to believe them, and extended every benefit of the doubt. You have proven that they are far more right about you than wrong.
Hunter: ” In the event they are successful, then the so-called day for going public will come, and then you will hop aboard the White Nationalist train.”
More bald faced lying. That is not my approach at all, as I’ve made clear numerous times.
Hunter: “I’m learning a lot how successful movements operate here. I’ve learned that doing nothing in the real world, reading the next book, and posting the next anonymous comment is “what works” and will bring about the White ethnostate.”
No, you’ve learned to lie, obfuscate, and misrepresent.
Hunter: “It is worth noting that nothing seems to have stopped you from being a libertarian street activist for years. Of course that was safe and no risk was involved.”
Sure, a helluva lot less risk. But the point still stands: when the cultural ground isn’t prepared, street activism doesn’t accomplish much. Hard to do well when only 1 in 800 people have a clue what you are talking about, and the other 799 see you as either a Martian or a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews. But you’re right, Faux Chest Thumper. No need for preparatory work, and anybody who says otherwise is devoid of character.
Hunter: ” I was confounded by this paradox: the more I did to advance the cause; the harder I pushed myself; the more sacrifices I made; the more I stepped up to the plate; the more viciously and consistently I was attacked by other White Nationalists.”
Funny, I don’t remember these attacks. The site was going along nicely, growing and prospering, until YOU spread acrimony and conflict with your sensless, self-indulgent attack on white nationalist intellectuals. It was you who started the circular firing squad. But given your propensity for turning truth on its head, I’m no longer surprised that you claim the opposite.
Hunter: “A purple unicorn is more likely to appear on my doorstep tomorrow than you are to create the “revolutionary vision” and stand up for your beliefs in the real world.”
LOL! Keep it up, destroy what little credibility you may have left. Don’t let truth and reality get in your way. What are they?
Hunter: “You already have been exposed to said ideas. Isn’t it interesting they don’t seem to be inspiring you to do anything?”
Again, with the Rain Man thing. I’ve already stated clearly what I am doing, and why. You can’t/won’t understand this. Apparently, if I’m not strutting around (doing what isn’t clear), then I’m doing nothing. Makes perfect sense.
Hunter: “In fact, many of them are. Plenty of ordinary Americans and unsophisticated people seem to be willing to act in the real world, unlike some people.”
LOL! Yes, that refutes what I have been saying. Good show! You really have a firm grasp of the situation.
Hunter: “There was more real world action before the internet provided the perfect means for indulging in escapism.”
Great. Tell me the benefit that it provided. What was the payoff, exactly? Why didn’t it win us our ethnostate?
Hunter: “I can’t emphasize enough how much I was mistaken on that point. I was swiftly cured of my illusions. I found out that nothing had changed at all.”
Much has changed, and will change. One thing that hasn’t changed is the propensity for immature types to initiate circular firing squads, creating bitterness and acrimony for no positive gain. But then, it gave you an opportunity to faux chest thump and engage in expressive individualism, so I guess it was worth it.
Hunter: ” My position all along has been that ideas are NOT SUFFICIENT to produce action.”
Nobody is making that claim. The argument is that the spread of white nationalist ideas into the culture is a PRECONDITION of success at the street level.
Hunter: “Trainspotter, You were the one who resurrected this debate for the sixth or seventh time. I don’t even read those websites anymore.”
I’m not sure that I resurrected it, but I know who started it: you, with your self-indulgent attack on those horrible white nationalist intellectuals. Yep, they are the problem for sure.
In any event, I think this has run its course. I’ve wasted enough time and ink. You are welcome to the last word. However, I will respond if you insist upon lying and/or substantively misrepresenting my position. Beyond that, I’m done. If I post on the site at all, which I haven’t decided yet, I will avoid your threads – beyond refuting dishonest misrepresentations of my position.
I no longer believe that meaningful discussion with you is possible, at least in your current state. In these past several weeks, it has been like dealing with a different person. If this thread causes a well meaning white nationalist to avoid senseless behaviors and instead concentrate on something where he might be of real use, then it was worth it. I think this discussion, such as it is, has gone on more than enough to accomplish that objective.
Trainspotter,
You were the one who resurrected this debate. This is the sixth or seventh time you have done so. You were obviously desperately trying to generate a response.
The debate about “White Nationalist intellectuals” is over. You are the one who continues to beat this dead horse. I’ve lost interest in the subject and have discontinued reading those websites.
Are White Nationalist intellectuals are problem? I’m not going to pretend that I care anymore.
Personally, I don’t think they will lift a finger to do anything to promote their ideas in the real world. I don’t think the people who follow them will do anything aside from read their websites and argue with people in cyberspace either.
I’m waiting to be proven wrong.
1.) If the “revolutionary vision” doesn’t exist, why are we arguing about the matter?
2.) If the “revolutionary vision” is the way forward, why aren’t you working on it?
3.) If you want to collaborate with others to create the “revolutionary vision,” and you admit that nothing is stopping you from doing so, whether here or elsewhere, then what’s the problem?
You have argued here that we are in the “leaner years” of White Nationalism and that the “cultural ground” must be prepared by spreading ideas on the internet. I’ve seen no evidence that corroborates this.
There is no evidence that posting anonymous comments on the internet leads to White Nationalist activism. There is no evidence that simply believing in White Nationalism is sufficient to produce action.
The opposite is true: of the people who believe in White Nationalism, who entertain our ideas, it is the small minority that acts in the real world.
There is less organization and less activism than there was ten years ago before White Nationalist websites like Stormfront became popular.
Here’s what I think happened: people see that acting in the real world has unsavory consequences like social ostracism and employment discrimination. They draw the conclusion that preserving their middle class lifestyle is more important than their ideological commitment to White Nationalism.
In a single stroke, this explains the overwhelming popularity of White Nationalism on the internet and the dearth of activism and organization in the real world. It is because people can post on the internet – safely and anonymously – and indulge in collective fantasies and escapism without having to suffer any consequences.
I’m being more realistic than ever before: in order for White Nationalism to take off in the real world, the social and economic penalties that come with action must be removed, but that can only be accomplished through action.
The typical White Nationalist – someone like yourself – realizes that acting in the real world could result in financial and social costs. You prioritize living a comfortable middle class lifestyle over your beliefs.
That’s why you don’t act on your beliefs. There is no other reason.
Y-O-U W-O-N-T A-C-T.
That’s the bottom line. That’s why nothing ever changes. That’s why White Nationalism grows horizontally, in the sense that it accumulates believers, but not vertically, in the sense that the believers organize and build momentum in the real world.
If White Nationalists won’t act to remove the barriers, then someone else has to do it for them. That is the inescapable conclusion. Someone else has to rescue you.
I’m saying that I tried my approach.
It’s your turn now. Let’s try your approach. Go ahead and implement the approach (i.e., creating the “revolutionary vision” and “preparing the cultural ground”) that you have argued for so tirelessly here.
Then we can all sit back and see what happens.
I’m not going anywhere. I plan to intensely follow the success or failure of this proposed collective endeavor.
What’s the worst that can happen? You are proven right. I am proven wrong. In the larger scheme of things, losing an argument on the internet is a small price to pay for the salvation of the White race.
Now what are you waiting for?
The Tea Party is a volatile, unarticulated reaction to the vague perception that Americans are “losing their country.” It has nowhere near the depth and sophistication of analysis that can be found in even the crudest of White Nationalist circles.
Cowardice – it is a moral failing that White Nationalists never hesitate to attribute to others, but one which should elicit a great deal of self-examination.
Who are the real cowards? The people who sit in their grandmother’s basement and shout “exterminate the Jews” in the anonymity of cyberspace, the internet equivalent of scrawling a swastika on a bathroom door of a public restroom, or the people who actually do something in the real world, however modest, to reverse our collective decline?
The only movement that I can see is the electrons that are transmitted through cyberspace and the movement between the computer desk and the refrigerator to crack open the next beer.
How many times do I have to point out that you and tens of thousands of other people have already been exposed to those ideas, but choose to sit on your ass and do nothing? What good is conversion if the people who are already converted don’t do anything?
How many people had heard of the Tea Party in 2007?
I don’t expect you or anyone else to do much of anything. The reason you don’t act is because of the social penalties that come with engaging in White Nationalist activism. There is nothing I or anyone else can say to change that calculation.
Finally – you get to the rub of the issue.
The system metes out punishment. You are unwilling to endure said punishment. In the hierarchy of your priorities, White Nationalism is well down the list.
I’m not attacking White Nationalist intellectuals. I haven’t written any further posts about them. You are the one who is obsessed with the issue, not me.
Translation: I’m afraid of losing my job. I’m afraid that my friends who find out what I truly believe. But I assure you I have as much courage and integrity as the next guy.
Conclusion: For social and material reasons, you and everyone else who shares your point of view won’t act in the real world. Thus, if we ever hope to get anywhere, we have to back some other horse, one that doesn’t have the same inhibitions about acting in the real world.
I don’t think you will achieve victory.
I would be stunned if that turned out not to be the case. I would incredibly thankful that I was mistaken. My experience, gut instinct, and reason all tell me that White Nationalism will never go anywhere … until some outside force or unforeseen event dramatically alters the status quo.
There isn’t a “circular firing squad” here. The debate about “White Nationalist intellectuals” is over. I don’t read those websites anymore and have no plans to say anything any further about them.
That’s what I thought.
Everything you have said here is a mere language game. It is nothing more than empty rhetoric.
You don’t even believe yourself in what you are saying here.
For if you truly believed that the “revolutionary vision” is our salvation, you certainly wouldn’t be wasting my time arguing about it. You would do the heavy lifting that comes with creating it.
But you’re not going to do that. You’re not going to do it because a “revolutionary vision” that inspires action, one advertised as such, would naturally raise the uncomfortable question why it doesn’t inspire you to act on it yourself.
Translation: In the “lean years,” when times are hard, Trainspotter isn’t willing to act to get White Nationalism out of the ditch (i.e., break the taboos), but he is perfectly willing to let you do the heavy lifting and incur the costs.
As I have repeatedly said, Trainspotter wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants a White ethnostate, but doesn’t want to do the hard work to bring it about, which he is content to outsource to others.
Let other people risk losing their jobs. Let other people endure social ostracism. Let other people endure assault or go to prison.
When it is “safe” to be a White Nationalist, Trainspotter will be ready and willing to assume the throne.
There is a word for this: I believe they are called “freeloaders.”
In the previous thread, Trainspotter went into an elaborate monologue about how in the “leaner years” a hardcore vanguard would have to act and endure the penalties of acting to break the taboos and take White Nationalism to the next stage.
Naturally, he exempts himself from their number, and plans to serve in the White Nationalist equivalent of “homeland defense” (i.e., safely posting anonymous comments on blogs) during wartime.
Your argument is as follows: like other social movements, White Nationalism moves in stages. In the “leaner years,” a hardcore vanguard has to act to break the taboos, which will “move us to the next stage.” At that stage (i.e., the easy stage), but not this one (i.e., the tough one), you will be willing to act.
When a BILLION anonymous comments are posted, then the ethnostate will be in sight.
At what precise number of anonymous comments will the Jews and the United States federal government be persuaded to part with a substantial chunk of American territory?
Apparently, Trainspotter is unfamiliar with the sequence of events that transpired offline which led to the “senseless, self-indulgent attack” … for example, the libel that was spread around that I work for the SPLC.
False.
The sequence of events that led up to this started back in April and May.
Your whole argument has been that “ideas” lead to action. Hence, we need to expose people to “our ideas.” That doesn’t explain why someone like you – who is ideologically enthralled to those ideas – refuses to act in the real world.
It does.
Illiterates were capable of creating a nation and winning its independence. As for you people, there isn’t an idea or book in the world that could persuade you to do anything.
Simple.
The same structural forces which are sufficient to deter you from doing anything (i.e., social ostracism and employment discrimination) impede the efforts of those who do act to create the momentum necessary to make the breakthrough.
There isn’t any circular firing squad here.
A circular firing squad presupposes that I am part of the circle. I learned my lesson and left that circle in disgust.
And who is going to do that? The only people who could conceivably do such a thing would have to possess the distribution networks to introduce those ideas to a mass audience.
Hunter, I said that you were welcome to the last word, provided that you did not use it to spread lies and disinformation. I particularly emphasized that I found your lies and misrepresentations about my position on street activism repugnant. Needless to say, you couldn’t handle that. In your manic and obsessive way, your “last word” is now rambling post after rambling post. I engaged in debate, what you are engaging in is harder to say.
Virtually every line that you spout is a misrepresenation in some form or another. At least you are consistent. I’ll not spend the time to address each one, as I have already done so. However, I will address one of your more pernicious lies. Not for you benefit, as I don’t particularly care what you believe. My purpose is to prevent white nationalists of good will from being bamboozled, so I will explain (again, for their benefit) my position on this subject, as opposed to allowing your misrepresentations to go unchallenged.
As a people, we are in great trouble. This is obvious. It is certainly the case that we, as white nationalists, are not “doing enough.” In such a terrible state of affairs, the person who starts demanding that others go public, get involved in the real world, do something (what isn’t exactly clear) can very possibly misdirect someone, especially young idealistic types, into engaging in activity that doesn’t help white nationalism in any way, and in fact only serves to hurt the idealist.
When a person considers whether or not to go public, one very basic question that he needs to ask is “Will my going public help white nationalism?” Obviously, every person needs to answer this question himself, but he should not be cajoled by faux chest thumpers and wannabe tough guys. Clearly there are some people that, by the very nature of what they intend to do, have to go public. Want to run for office? You’re going to have to go public. Want to do media interviews? You’re going to have to go public. Obviously. There is no way around it.
But how many people can do these sorts of things? Can you run a professional radio show, year after year? James Edwards can. Can you create a meaningful internet radio station, and develop an impressive lineup of programming, keeping it going year after year? Dietrich can. Can you write scholarly research on issues of great importance to the white nationalist cause, and speak well to boot? McDonald can. Can you give great lectures and media interviews? Jared Taylor can. Can you be a real contender for major office, write important books, produce quality media and be effective on the lecture circuit? Duke can.
So yes, obviously, there are people who, by the nature of what they do, must be public. Those people will also get, as they should, the lion’s share of white nationalist financial contributions. I realize that, wherever money is concerned, there are going to be problems and questions raised. That seems an immutable fact of life, and there is always the chance of it becoming a racket.
But, generally speaking, those who are capable of creating real value for white nationalism deserve our financial support. It is unreasonable to expect great activists to give it their all, while worrying whether they can pay the light bill this month. Now, there may come a day when white nationalists will be expected to give their lives for a new nation, but that day isn’t here. It is only reasonable that those talented people who truly add value to white nationalism be supported financially by the movement, at least to a reasonable extent.
Yet there is the rub. The white nationalist movement, at its current stage of development, can ony support a fairly small number of people. Demanding that average white nationalists go public and “act,” without any sense of the efficacy of the act, is senseless. We can’t support these people, and it is wrong to leave them twisting in the wind. Maybe one day we’ll be able to say, “Hey man, go for it. If you get burned, you’ve got a job waiting for you at Euros Forward.” But we can’t do that today. We can only support the most talented handful, the top tier. Unless you can operate at the level of that top tier, you’re probably going to be left hanging.
Hell, this doesn’t just apply to the average white nationalist, but to the well above average white nationalist. Look again at the names that I mentioned above. Whatever criticisms or quibbles you may have with them as individuals, they are undeniably a pretty talented group of guys. Can you do as well, or better? Be honest with yourself. If not, why should you suck up (or at least hope to suck up) finite white nationalist resources? Anyone who wants to go public should consider this carefully. Unless you truly have something of particular and great value to offer, most likely you will not get real support, fraudsters like Hal Turner notwithstanding.
If you don’t have something of particular value to offer, something that requires going public by its nature, what are you going to accomplish? Is engaging in self-expressive individualism actually helping white nationalism? Not that I can see. Maybe I’m forgetting something, but with one exception, I can’t think of any street activism in many, many years that has actually benefited white nationalism. There is simply no payoff there. The one exception, and I’m not entirely convinced that it was necessary, was Linder’s Knoxville protest(s). Linder, damn near single handedly, forced that issue onto a much wider audience. He kept hammering away until, gradually, the story spread. He did most of this online, but I’ll grant that the protest (which technically didn’t go well at all), may have been a factor in getting the story out. Even there, it was mostly the internet that got the job done.
Other than that? A big goose egg, as far as I can tell. This isn’t unusual. As a former libertarian, I don’t believe our street activism twenty years ago had any meaningful impact either. We were Martians, putting the cart before the horse. What worked was writing and sprading ideas. When libertarians gained access to the internet, this process gained speed and reached a critical mass where street activity and real world organizing started to become effective. Those damn keyboard commandos, I know. The ideas had to spread first, then the rest comes naturally. I stopped street activism well before I ceased to be a libertarian, as it was pointless to do it as a Martian. (I’ll mention as an aside that my campus organizing, in contrast, was extremely successful – and I learned a great deal from it, but that involved some factors that don’t apply to the generic “street,” and certainly nothing that white nationalists could replicate at the present time. I know how to do it and could teach someone, but again, the necessary preconditions don’t exist. Bottom line: I’ve done real world activism, I’ve been quite successful at it, I’ve seen what works and what doesn’t, and I’m telling you: WN ain’t ready for it yet, with limited exceptions. That could change in a month or a year, but today that’s just the reality of the situation)
White nationalist street activists are in a far, far worse position than we were. They aren’t just Martians, they are martiannaziswhowanttokillsixmillionjews. They are victimized by a System that has all manner of ways to abuse them. We didn’t face any of that, but it was still pretty much pointless, until the keyboard commandos did their job and spread libertarian ideas far enough for street activists to have something to work with. Then all of a sudden you get the Ron Paul Meetups all over the country, tens of millions of dollars raised, and the antecedents to the current Tea Party. The Tea Party may not be libertarian in a pure sense, yet it clearly evolved out of the Ron Paul movement.
There is simply no point in putting the cart before the horse. For white nationalists, that’s just going to make themselves dandy targets for the System, while accomplishing nothing of value for white nationalism. There are of course exceptions to the rule, and I try to support them. But what would I accomplish by going public? Right now, all I’m able to do is casual writing and offering some modest financial support to worthy people when I can. Going public isn’t going to change that, at least not for the better.
I’ll also note that I admire the people that I mentioned above, and I don’t pity them. You try to spin it as if I’m sitting back while they sacrifice. The truth is that I don’t think I have a better life than them, as you falsely suggest. I’d rather be free to do white nationalist work all the time, but again, I don’t currently offer enough of value to do that. Is David Duke to be pitied? I don’t think so. What a life he has had! Pretty amazing stuff. I don’t pity the guys who have something real to offer by going public, AND who get enough movement support that they don’t have to worry too much about the light bill. The guy I pity is the one who gets himself damaged by going public for no valid reason, doesn’t get support and is left twisting in the wind. That is a damn shame, I’ve seen it happen, and I fucking hate to see it happen. It deeply bothers me, and I will do what I can to prevent it.
It is the purpose of this rather long piece to prevent you from doing this to someone, with whatever waning influence you might have left. Believe it or not, I still give at least a slight shit about what happens to YOU, despite your lies and mirespresentations. That’s why I counseled you NOT to go public. I didn’t want to see you harmed when no good could come out of it. You aren’t effective at the sorts of things that real world activists do, and you are or were good at things that do not require going public – writing (pre dishonesty).
So in any event, I’ve made my decision for myself. I’m trying to give food for thought to others who may be grappling with a similar decision. At the current time, I don’t believe that my going public would help white nationalism in any way. The only real effect it would have is that I would probably be in less of a position to donate financially to those who actually offer real value by virtue of their public status (and unless I offered something of equal or greater value, I would not feel justified in soliciting funds). My real value at present is in my writing, which I think some people benefit from. I can do that with a pen name. Hell, on the internet, pen names are pretty much expected, it’s not abnormal at all. Look at Roissy.
So long as they offer real value and are not merely engaging in chest thumping and self-indulgent posturing, I admire those who have gone public. It is, frankly, heroic. I encourage people to support them. Our greatest and bravest talents need to be able to focus on the Cause, not worrying all the time about making rent.
But I do not admire expressive individualism for its own sake. Unless someone really offers value by going public, I say don’t do it. We’re at the idea spreading stage anyway, and “convenient” or not, it’s the truth. I stopped generic libertarian street activism, not because there were social penalities (there weren’t), but simply because IT WAS NOT EFFECTIVE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. I realized that other things had to be done first, and I was right. Back then, I called it exactly as it ended up happening – not in precise detail, but the general pattern. And I’m right this time, too. Been there, done that, learned something along the way. Here is a bit advice: you can either learn from other’s mistakes, or you can learn the hard way.
I have a vision of what is in front of us in broad sweeps, but of course I don’t know the details. What I do know is that, as of today, it is pointless for most WN to go public, and therefore I counsel against it. We are a de facto underground movement, and we need to learn to operate that way. To me that means radicalization, the development and spread of white nationalist ideas that can challenge the status quo, and Kievsky style taqiyah where that makes sense. No need to provide dandy targets. Plenty of underground movements have been successful, and white nationalism will be as well. But we need to shun the bamboozlers, the liars, the obfuscators. Not to mention the blowhards who couldn’t identify a pattern if it bit them on the ass.
That’s it, Hunter. My position is not at all what you claim, and your continuing to lie about it only reduces what little credibility that you have left.
Yet another one in the filter.
It took two paragraphs to say, “Hunter is misrepresenting my argument.” Brevity is not your strong suit. 🙂
Ever see a swastika or the word nigger scrawled into the wall of a public restroom? White Nationalism is the macrocosm of that type of anonymous behavior.
Why would such behavior “hurt” the “young idealistic types”? It “hurts” them because there are social and economic consequences to standing up for White Nationalism in the real world.
It is really that simple.
People are afraid of losing their jobs. People are afraid of their true beliefs being revealed to their friends and family.
To be sure, they are”White Nationalists,” but in their hierarchy of values, “White Nationalism” isn’t anywhere near the top of the list. It ranks well below preserving their comfortable middle class lifestyle and social status.
Translation: Will going public have a negative material effect on my personal life? Most likely.
I value my financial well being more than my ideological commitment to White Nationalism. Thus, I should not go public.
James Edwards isn’t doing The Political Cesspool because it benefits him financially. He does it because it is the right thing to do.
As it happens, Dietrich has chosen to quit Voice of Reason because he is similarly disillusioned with the unreliability of White Nationalists.
Kevin MacDonald and Jared Taylor could have chosen another path; one in which they are materially more successful, one in which they are not socially ostracized.
David Duke could have been a successful politician. He chose instead to stand up for his racial beliefs. It certainly wasn’t in his self interest to do this. Like Taylor, Edwards, and MacDonald, he probably thought it was the right thing to do.
Neither Edwards, MacDonald, Taylor, or Duke had to go public with their beliefs. James Edwards could have been a far more successful radio host. David Duke could have been a far more successful politician. Kevin MacDonald could have been a far more successful academic. Jared Taylor could have been a renowned “race relations expert” if he said all the things that please the establishment.
James Edwards, David Duke, Kevin MacDonald, and Jared Taylor all do good work. I won’t say a negative thing about them. Righteous behavior should be rewarded in the White Nationalist community.
Unfortunately, the exact opposite is closer to the truth.
In the White Nationalist community, I have found that real world activism tends to correlate in a relative increase in vicious and malicious attacks from other people who share that perspective.
That day will never come. Ten years from now, assuming a miracle doesn’t happen, there will be more White Nationalists posting anonymous comments on the internet, but otherwise nothing will have changed. People who are unwilling face a digital camera aren’t going to give their lives for White Nationalism.
Dietrich found out that he wasn’t going to be supported by the White Nationalist community.
The White Nationalist movement has been stuck at its “current stage of development” for forty years. Unlike the Tea Party, it has never moved beyond that stage. It doesn’t move that stage because White Nationalists don’t have courage and integrity to stand up for their beliefs in the real world.
I never said that acting in the real world would benefit White Nationalists from a social and material perspective. Quite the opposite.
The real question is whether it is the right thing to do. Morally, it is the right thing to do. Politically, it also makes sense.
The only way to overthrow entrenched taboos is to challenge them. If you are not going to challenge them, it is better to make your peace with the system.
Let’s be honest.
1.) You are not going to stand up for your beliefs in the real world.
2.) You are not going to support those who do.
3.) You are not going to change the world by posting anonymous comments on the internet.
4.) You are not going to “move to the next stage” because everyone else is going to make the same calculation on the basis of their own self interest.
I know James Edwards, Kevin MacDonald, and Jared Taylor. I have met them in real life. Do you see me attacking them? I have nothing but praise for their work.
1.) I’m not sucking up “finite white nationalist resources.”
2.) I took down the “Donate” page on this website a week ago.
3.) I resigned my position at TOQ in July.
4.) I didn’t spend the money that we raised. Every single dollar of it is still in the PayPal account.
I’m not asking for support. If I wanted the support of the White Nationalist community, I wouldn’t have resigned my position at TOQ. It quickly became apparent to me that working for the White Nationalist community isn’t worth the trouble that comes with the job.
1.) As you have said, White Nationalism is an “underground movement.”
2.) It is an underground movement because of the employment discrimination and social ostracism that comes with publicly endorsing White Nationalism.
3.) The only way to change your circumstances is through direct action in the real world. If you believe you can break those taboos through posting a billion anonymous comments in cyberspace, you are only lying to yourself and misleading others.
That’s because street activism has been almost entirely abandoned to outcasts and misfits like the NSM.
Alex Linder is a marginalized pariah with a small following of Neo-Nazis in cyberspace. He doesn’t have a mass following in either Knoxville or Missouri.
Just the opposite is true: the Ron Paul presidential campaign is what worked, not posting anonymous comments on the internet. It shook up the system and led to the creation of permanent institutions like Campaign for Liberty and Young Americans for Liberty which paved the way for the Rand Paul campaign in Kentucky.
False analogy.
Anyone can be a libertarian in America without having to face social and economic consequences. The reason White Nationalist activism has failed to take off can be attributed to the social and economic consequences that come with being a White Nationalist.
1.) Why were you a libertarian street activist?
2.) Why do you refuse to become a White Nationalist street activist?
It’s because you can indulge in the former without having to face any risk or material consequences whereas the latter comes with both.
You are comparing apples with oranges. The libertarians never went up against anything remotely resembling the institutional ostracism and discrimination that White Nationalists are up against.
The Tea Party did not evolve out of the Ron Paul movement. Most of the people in the Tea Party wouldn’t vote for Ron Paul if he were to run for president in 2012. The typical Tea Party member is closer ideologically to Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck than Ron Paul.
Here’s whats going to happen: in the next ten years, a billion more comments will be posted in cyberspace; our racial situation will continue to deteriorate; nothing in the way of change will come out of the White Nationalist movement.
Why don’t you just admit that you refuse to go public because it would have a negative impact on your financial situation and social life? We both know that is the true reason. We both know that preserving the middle class lifestyle matters more than the ideological commitment.
So why beat around the bush?
You know full well that in order to get from the “lean stage” to the “next stage” that someone has to act in the real world to break the taboos. You exempt yourself from their number.
Just admit it.
That’s my whole point: if you act in the real world as a White Nationalist, you are damaged in the process. White Nationalists are fully aware of this and retreat to cyberspace as a consequences.
If you don’t act in the real world to crush taboos, they will persist for generations, and will probably go stronger in the absence of resistance. The only way to challenge those taboos is to act in the real world.
White Nationalists can’t summon the will or the courage to challenge those taboos.
That’s fine.
To be honest, I regret this exchange has become so nasty. I also regret a lot of things that have transpired here recently.
You’re a smart guy.
You know as well as I do that taboos have to be confronted to be broken. You also know that White Nationalists are unwilling to confront those taboos because of the consequences described above.
Follow that reasoning to its logical conclusion.
If White Nationalists won’t act in the real world, then someone else has to act for them, or we should resign ourselves to defeat.
There is a lot of honesty in this paragraph.
Let’s be realistic.
95% of White Nationalists will make the same calculation. That calculation is based on the financial and social costs of open advocacy of White Nationalism.
Somehow that barrier has to removed. White Nationalists are unwilling to confront the barrier themselves.
Thus, we need either a miraculous fortuitous event (i.e., “the collapse”), or outside intervention to change the status quo.
Oh, I learned the hard way. That’s for sure.
In my case, “learning the hard way” had nothing to do with the actions of our avowed enemies. On the contrary, the learning experience was entirely in the response of people who ostensibly claim to be on our own side.
Here’s something that has stuck in my craw:
When I confronted Jeffrey Imm and his followers in DC, I was angry and self righteous at first, but we later sat down and had a civil conversation for about thirty minutes.
If Jeffrey Imm had desired to do so, he could have caused me personal hardship. But that’s not what happened at all: Imm and his followers went to great pains to demonstrate they were not motivated by hatred, pettiness, or malice. I was left with the impression that Imm is someone who believes his own message.
The hatred, pettiness, and malice: those traits came exclusively from the people who claim to share my own ideological beliefs.
Jeffrey Imm has caused me far less trouble than other White Nationalists.