Arizona
Over the past week, I have spent a lot of time exploring the divide within the White Nationalist movement between the “mainstreamer” and “vanguardist” camps. There has been a furious discussion about this issue going on in the comments.
Normally, I don’t write on Sunday, but something happened yesterday of such relevance to this debate that I can’t help but comment on the matter. It appears our friends in the National Socialist Movement are back in the news.
This time around they returned to Phoenix to hold yet another successful police rally:
The NSM is trying to capitalize on White unease over non-White immigration to promote a National Socialist worldview in the United States. As we saw in Knoxville, the messenger is just as important as the message being sent. By refusing to adapt their rhetoric to the experience of their audience, the NSM has once again courted public rejection and associated patriotic immigration reform with Nazism.
It pains me that I have to struggle to point this out: Americans don’t want their immigration reform served with a side order of swastikas, anti-Americanism, and anti-Christianity. If you only separate this combo into its constituent parts and repackage the immigration reform in more palatable terms, you can seize power and get remedial legislation passed right now.
This debate should have been settled twenty years ago by David Duke’s political success in Louisiana. It is a testament to the stagnation of the White Nationalist movement since that time (caused primarily by the emphasis on “spreading ideas” anonymously in cyberspace) that we are still having it at this late juncture.
Both Tennessee and Arizona are great states for us. In the 2010 midterm elections, the Republicans captured control of the Tennessee governorship and state legislature. In the 2011 legislative session, Tennessee will almost certainly pass Arizona-style immigration reform, which has the support of over 70 percent of voters.
Across the Heartland, White America is poised to pass restrictionist laws (much to the regret of our enemies) on the basis of the Arizona model. I have already drawn attention to such movements in Utah, Mississippi, Texas, Iowa, and Wisconsin. More states are prepared to follow which I have yet to cover. I will be returning to this subject next week.
Some in the White Nationalist movement continue to insist that “shutting up and blending in” is not the path forward. In their words, it is “a prescription for oblivion, not progress.” The NSM has taken their advice to heart and continues to press this model in the public sphere.
If everyone in Arizona was equally determined to follow them off the plank into the deepest waters of political insanity, I shudder to think where our cause would be today. Instead of driving over 100,000 illegal aliens out of the state this year alone, we would be welcoming them in ever larger numbers.
Although I’m sometimes afraid that you’re a little bit too excited about the GOP (as opposed to being excited only about those republicans who – in actions, if not in words – truly seems to be on our side), I believe this illustrates your point very well.
I would however also like to state my belief that our money and most of our time should probably go toward PACs and action groups (numbers USA etc.), rather than political candidates. In that respect I believe that Mr. Johnson is right: the candidates already have enough money, let’s spend it on (real world) activity that is more specialized to our interests.
I guess I’m giving you a win on points, about 3-1. 🙂
The rally was ostensibly in support of SB 1070. Let’s not forget that it was working within the mainstream that got us SB 1070 in the first place and the polarizing national controversy caused by the Justice Department lawsuit that spread it across America.
I think supporting PACs is a great idea. The A3P should become a PAC that could act like a White Nationalist version of NumbersUSA across a range of issues.
In the smaller races, campaign contributions can get you some influence. I am referring to races like mayor, city council, state rep and senator, county sheriff, etc.
The other side of this argument is that the Ron Paul presidential campaign was doomed from the start, but it drew in lots of new people and built the institutions and momentum that fueled Rand Paul’s successful Senate victory in Kentucky.
And let’s not forget that a few years ago the “mainstream” was more than willing to sit back and be spoon-fed a choice between a half back socialist, or an open-borders warhawk. Neither party was willing to concede that many Americans(especially White Americans) supported ending incentives and amnesty, ending birthright citizenship, deportation, going after the employers of illegals, etc. The mainstream perception, as seen through the eyes of the major networks and parties, was a complete contradiction to the reality of public opinion. The political landscape would have never changed much had everyone continued to get their reality from FOX, CNN, or MSNBC.
The only reason you’re in a position to talk about working within the mainstream today is because enough people decided to not work within the “mainstream” several years ago. The little wave you feel like you’re riding today was brought to you by the people who realized that Left vs Right, Democrat vs Republican, Liberal vs Conservative, blah blah blah, was nothing but smoke and mirrors, because both sides disregard the wants and needs of those they pretend to serve. Whether our posterity is maligned by millions of illegals pouring into the country, or millions of jobs and resources pouring out of the country, it all has the same effect. The sad part is that both “choices” in 2008 were supportive of both scenarios of illegals pouring in and jobs pouring out. The really scary part is that the “mainstream” sat there and nodded their head in approval, thinking one might be better than the other.
I’d also have to agree that a PAC would be much more feasible and effective at this stage.
How is the NSM any different than the mestizo Brown Beret or La Raza? I’m rather indifferent to the NSM but would morally support them if I were convinced of their commitment and sincerity to advancing the interest of white people. If non-whites embrace their radicals and genocidal bigots within their ranks then it’s time white people do the same. And most mestizos support the two aforementioned groups by clear majorities.
“If everyone in Arizona was equally determined to follow them off the plank into the deepest waters of political insanity, I shudder to think where our cause would be today. Instead of driving over 100,000 illegal aliens out of the state this year alone, we would be welcoming them in ever larger numbers. ”
Don’t forget that only 20,000 illegals returned to Mexico while the other 80% simply moved to illegal alien friendly U.S. states. The other thing that escapes you is that the people of Arizona had simply had it up to their eyeballs with illegal immigration and no big wig Republican, talk radio host, or NSM rally was going to convince them otherwise. It’s clear the NSM has no positive or negative impact with the voters or on anti-illegal sentiment in AZ so why spill ink talking about it?
The ordinary, patriotic working people (mostly white) of AZ won the day and not conservative talk radio pundits. If you’re trying to prove that conservative style polemics motivated AZ voters to take action that’s clearly incorrect. If it played a role it was a minor one.
The whites of AZ aren’t empty headed fools waiting around for Rush Limbaugh and Laura Ingraham to give them instructions and tell them what to think. It was bearing witness to the filth, sloth, violence, drugs and kidnappings for ransom that prompted Jan Brewer and state elected officials, at the behest of the voters, to pass SB1070.
Bob Whitiker at BUGS had an excellent blog yesterday about this “mainstreamer” and “vanguardist” situation. The blog was entitled “Fighting for Defeat”. It discussed how vanguardist types will insist how all the positive efforts of mainstreamers are in vain and that the WN cause is essentially doomed. Vanguardists will fight mainstreamers more vehemently than they will fight anti-whites in order to justify their pessimism and defeatism. Your article here is an example of vanguardist self fulfilling prophecy come true. Very few Americans are interested in becoming NAZIS and will reject any issue associated with it, even issues that are legitimate.
Does anyone know who really is in charge of these NS’s? Is it some leftist individuals or ADL types trying to link ns’ers and anti-immigration. Are these ns’ers being used as a type of ideological false flag? It always strange that these NS’ers always seem to show up like this.
Speaking of the NSM, why does it not seem important to it’s members that their front man is married to a woman who has a mixed child from a black man she was married to for years?
If I remember correctly, Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo ran for president in the 2008 presidential election. While neither candidate emerged victorious, both succeeded in pushing their respective agendas into the national political conversation.
In the case of Tancredo, there are now more than 70 elected members of Congress who support cutting legal immigration. There are hundreds of little Tancredos in the state legislatures. Tancredo himself came close to becoming Governor of Colorado. If the Colorado GOP had not been in such disarray, he probably would have won.
In the case of Ron Paul, his presidential campaign led to the “Campaign for Liberty” and “Young Americans for Liberty” institutions. Paul got thousands of people involved in his brand of politics. His son Rand Paul is now a U.S. Senator.
What do White Nationalists have to show for the 2008 election cycle? Did they make any headway in advancing their views?
Actually, there were A LOT of people in the Republican Party who opposed amnesty and birthright citizenship back then. There were Republicans who supported deporting illegal aliens and cracking down on employers of illegals. They defeated the Bush amnesty on two occasions.
As early as 2007, Arizona was already heading in this direction. Arizona and Colorado passed laws two or three years ago that made life uncomfortable for illegal aliens. They exodus from Arizona has been going on for several years now.
/ scratches head.
Lou Dobbs on CNN spent years beating the drum over free trade and illegal immigration. Conservative talk radio also jumped on the anti-amnesty bandwagon after the May Day parade back in 2006. Have you ever listened to Michael Savage?
That’s ridiculous.
The political spectrum hasn’t changed on immigration because of White Nationalist vanguardists. It has changed because people like Russell Pearce, Tom Tancredo, and Pat Buchanan have spent years hammering away at the issue and drawing attention to it.
Oh yeah … I forgot … it was the NSM which brought the issue of illegal immigration before the public!
In the presidential race, yes. Down ballot in the governorships, congressional races, and state legislature races it was a different story.
No, the really truly scary part is that White Nationalists are still willing to listen to people who are stupid enough to believe that empowering our enemies and reinforcing our marginalization is some kind of path to success.
Yeah … that’s what we need to do. Embrace a Satanist Neo-Nazi like Cliff Herrington who marches around Tennessee, Illinois, and Arizona in a Stormtrooper costume.
That’s how we are going to reform our immigration system, not by supporting the people who are actually in power and who are effectively moving the goal posts on the subject. Jesus Christ.
You mean states like Utah and Arizona which are about to pass their own version of the Arizona law?
In fact, Lou Dobbs was on CNN hammering away at the issue almost every night for years. He was joined by conservative talk radio and numerous state and county elected officials in the state. Thanks to their influence we are going to pass Arizona-style immigration laws in places like Wisconsin and Iowa which don’t harbor large numbers of illegal aliens.
1.) We can “shut up and blend in” and work within the system to deport illegals, end birthright citizenship, crackdown on employers, cut legal immigration, militarize the border, and build the border fence.
In other words, we can win.
2.) Alternatively, we can join the NSM when they rally in Phoenix with their swastika flags, and spend the afternoon contesting for public opinion with clowns and anarchists.
In other words, we can lose.
That’s not true at all.
Those conservative talk radio pundits and television personalities made it seem normal and mainstream to embrace what had previously been controversial positions. Now we can openly campaign for almost everything we want on immigration within the mainstream. A few years ago, that wasn’t the case.
Support for SB 1070 has been spread nationwide. Even to relatively White states like Iowa, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Thanks in large part to the conservative media.
I keep forgetting you are a supporter of the “worse is better” theory. It doesn’t get any worse than California. Within California, it doesn’t get any worse than Los Angeles.
How did “worse is better” work out there? How is that Iowa, Tennessee, and Pennsylvania are adopting Arizona-style laws but California isn’t if “worse is better”?
Sounds familiar.
Read this new thread at VNN Forum:
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=115346
The stupidity on display here is breathtaking. It is a good illustration of how some White Nationalists have gone so far around the bend in their alienation and hatred of White America that they have effectively emerged on the other side.
Some of the NSMs message is great. It’s their style and imagery that’s the problem.
It’s too bad they won’t adapt, as you say.
Hunter Wallace:
You beat Trainspotter like a drum on this point — no practical plan whatsoever to transform the culture other by spreading ideas on the Internet.
And I greatly admire and respect TS — I think everyone in our circles do. He is a brilliant guy and right on most things. But from where I was watching on the sidelines during your long battle, he never had an answer for this key objection to his approach — at least not that I saw.
I agree with Erik though. Greg Johnson is right that mainstream candidates don’t need our money. I wasted money myself on Pat Buchanan back in the day.
The difference between Greg Johnson and Pat Buchanan is that the latter is actually effective in waking people up in the mainstream and alerting them to the dangers facing White America.
I can’t think of anyone who has done a better job of this than Pat Buchanan: differential birthrates, immigration, multiculturalism, abortion, free trade, anti-White double standards, foreign wars, politically incorrect truths about history, Jewish influence, etc. Who besides Buchanan has tied all these things together and painted a better image of the big picture? Who has awakened more people to these issues?
Again, no one.
Greg Johnson likes to talk about a “metapolitical struggle of ideas” that will close the gap between implicit Whiteness and explicit White Nationalism. Pat Buchanan is hands down our MVP in that respect. He can actually bridge that divide.
It was Buchanan’s book Death of the West that started me on the path to where I am today. I regret that I didn’t know who he was when he was running for president. I definitely would have voted for him and contributed to his campaign.
All of the conservative anti-immigration fervor has brought about the recent election victories. That is good. At the same time we have Eric Kantor, a Zionist who is now heading an important position in the Republican House leadership. The Israel worship continues. So it is a mixed bag. And that’s ok. All real change takes time.
The NSM etc are indicators of what may happen when the change we want becomes subverted by the powers-that-be. Is it possible to roll back the New World Order power structure by the ballot box? That’s the key question. I fully support the use of the ballot box to do this. But will it be successful? Will it un-do the Third World invasion? The headline in Saturday’s SF Chronicle was: “Lations now majority of students; but most Latinos still can’t vote”. Will that demographic reality be un-done by the ballot box? If so the NSM etc will remain a fringe group. If not, be prepared for more NSM-type groups to come out of the woodworks and grow in size, stature and influence because ordinary Americans will become increasingly radicalized. We shall see….
Sam Francis was also right about the MARs. He passed away before his time.
Trainspotter now spends most of his time arguing with NeoNietzsche on Majority Rights. It must make him feel real … engaged, productive, and making an difference.
I like Buchanan’s books and recommend them as gateway drugs. But it is more Hunter Wallace fantasism to think that he is one of us. When Pat Buchanan put Ezola Foster on his Presidential ticket, exactly what White Nationalist principle was he popularizing there?
I suspect he was trying to defuse the charge of “racism” that the media was hurling in his direction at the time. It was a miscalculation, but that was hardly worth not supporting his candidacy.
Thinking realistically here for a moment, something that fantasists like Greg Johnson are adverse to, Buchanan as President would have been worth putting up with 100 Evola Fosters. Imagine the federal judges, the changes in trade policy, the emphasis on border security, the wars we we could avoided, cutting ties with Israel, dismantling the military-industrial complex, pulling the troops back from abroad, the end of affirmative action, and countless other things like an attack on multiculturalism we could have got with a Buchanan presidency.
If Buchanan has done so much to push our views into the mainstream as a conservative commentator, imagine what he could have done with the gravitas of the presidency.
Instead of Buchanan, we got the incompetent George W. Bush, and because of the catastrophe of his presidency, we got Barack Obama as his replacement. How many millions of illegal aliens, anchor babies, and legal immigrants came here in the last decade? In the end, we got a nigger president anyway.
Hurrah!
Buchanan was defeated in the 2000 election. Fortunately for us, the National Alliance, WCOTC, and NSM – and now, VNN Forum and Counter-Currents – have stepped up to the plate to solve the problems of White America.
Greg Johnson says:
November 14, 2010 at 5:49 pm
“I like Buchanan’s books and recommend them as gateway drugs. But it is more Hunter Wallace fantasism to think that he is one of us. When Pat Buchanan put Ezola Foster on his Presidential ticket, exactly what White Nationalist principle was he popularizing there?”
JR Replies.
Buchanan is definitely one of us – always has been. Forget about the ridiculous Buchanan Reform Party Presidential Campaign and the ridiculous pick of Ezola Foster as his Black V.P.
This pandering, denial of White racial loyalty was pushed in mostly by Pat Buchanan’s sister Bay Buchanan who had aspirations of being a Mainstream Media talking head and would lose this opportunity of her brother was tarred and feathered with the label of a White racist/White Nationalist.
Pat Buchanan shares a lot of the blame for this Reform Party Presidential campaign as he let his ego get the best of him as he really enjoyed all the attention from his prior two campaigns for President on the GOP ticket – where he did very well, similar to David Duke challenging strongly but not winning US Senator and LA Governor.
A big part of the problem is what happens to one of our guys who gets on national TV a lot and has lots of admirers telling him how great he is and he is the only one that speaks for them, the regular people and “you’re our last hope” the guy’s ego gets the best of him – he thinks he’s using the campaign to “educate”, “teach” America and instead it just ends up being pathetic as Buchanan wins less than 1% of the vote on an obscure third party ticket. The same thing happened with the Ron Paul for President Campaign – RP wins less than 1% of GOP Presidential delegates and is forced to go on national TV with former AIPAC lobbyist Wolf Blitzer and Ron Paul denies he wrote or even read his own newsletter which said negative comments about the Black criminals who attacked White people and Korean grocers during the Rodney King riots.
Buchanan should have run for Governor of New Hampshire – he could have won that race.
Right, Greg. Also Buchanan fired some of his campaign staff after it was discovered they were associated with David Duke. Pat’s campaign manager publicly called them “kooks” on national television.
“I keep forgetting you are a supporter of the “worse is better” theory. It doesn’t get any worse than California. Within California, it doesn’t get any worse than Los Angeles.”
Ever heard of proposition 187? That was California’s version of SB1070 back in 1994. Talk radio was in its infancy then so had little bearing on the wishes of the California voters. After passage it, too, was immediately struck down in federal court and although appealed by Republican Governor Wilson, the appeal was eventually withdrawn by Democratic Governor Gray Davis in 1999. State and national conservatives had no plan B other than to bloviate on the airwaves and complain how mean and unfair the political left wing is. Grassroots conservatives in California were betrayed by the RNC. Besides, the territorial integrity of Israel and survival of the Jewish people is of paramount importance to the Republican party.
How did working within the system and moving the goalposts work for California voters in 1994? How do you know that SB1070 and similar laws enacted by Nevada, Utah and Pennsylvania won’t meet a similar fate as 187 and/or and watered down to the point of ineffectiveness? SB1070 has already been “defanged” by a federal circuit court if news reports are correct. Let me remind you that most federal judges are cultural Marxists.
If the courts federal kill those states’ restrictive immigration policy (and they will) then what’s your next move? I know, Hunter, I/we will get a lecture on how this time is different. That’s what people said in 1994 with the “Republican Revolution”. I bought it then but I’m not buying it now.
Our system is totally corrupt but you are still the starry eyed idealist who thinks the mainstream approach being proposed has never been thought of or tried before. The only thing conservatives have done with any regularity is snatch defeat from the jaws of victory time and again. But this time is different because Hunter says so.
Mr. Dithers says:
November 14, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Right, Greg. Also Buchanan fired some of his campaign staff after it was discovered they were associated with David Duke. Pat’s campaign manager publicly called them “kooks” on national television.
Our system is totally corrupt but….”
JR Replies – it’s simply defeatist to insist that the entire United States of America – the SYSTEM is completely corrupt and must be destroyed (got a plan for that?). There are plenty of towns in Tennessee that are White, safe, administered by good, decent White folks – you come off as a kook, idiot by lumping all the White elected officials in Murfreesboro TN with the most vile, corrupt anti White people/forces in Hollywood, the DNC, RNC.
Yes, we all understand your frustrations with political/racial set backs in California – I lived in California for 6 years, San Diego is still very, very good/great – don’t write off the whole state.
If mainstream politics isn’t your thing, fine – do something else, only do something else positive, don’t just moan and groan and complain that “WE’RE DOOMED , WE’RE ALL GOING TO DIE”. Consider an Amish style life – where Whites don’t participate much at all in the “SYSTEM” that you despise. Instead these Whites spend their time working the land, running small business, have large LARGE white families. You don’t see the Amish dressing up in NAZI costumes and making as*(**& out of themselves. Nor do you see White Amish giving up.
And if you are so totally burnt out on ZOG America, the American “SYSTEM” then go live in some other White country in say Eastern Europe or South America. That would take some effort, learning another language, meeting new people and yeah, getting away from American culture, American TV. Talk is cheap, and complaining, defeatist talk, talk talk is even cheaper.
Go do something positive with your life.
Hunter Wallace:
Yeah, and when the quintessential vanguardist Alex Linder hit the Internet scene in the early 2000s one of his major themes was bashing Buchanan, Francis, and Taylor.
Vanguardists are responsible for most of the divisiveness in this movement.
It’s always the vanguardists who emerge from their corners of the Internet to attack the non-vanguard WN and never the other way around. For years vanguardists have been routinely showing up at Amren to bang the drums on the JQ when they know Jared Taylor isn’t interested in the JQ. I have read VNN fairly often over the years and don’t ever recall any Amren supporters showing up there to do the same thing in reverse — browbeat the VNN commenters on their Jew obsession.
I should have realized years ago that Taylor was right to keep some distance between himself and these folks.
The more I think about it, the breakthrough formula for American White Nationalism has been sitting in front us for years now in the works of Buchanan, Francis, Taylor and McDonald.
All of the ideas we need to “spread” are right there. What else do we need?
Buchanan and Francis have already crafted the core messages that will resonate with most of White America, Taylor adds the KEY element of organizing around White identity, and KMD brings in the JQ but in a reasonable and convincing manner. Somebody with the talent and skill just needs to synthesize these materials.
Trainspotter is right that we have to spread ideas through the culture, but the Internet won’t cut it. It’s not that Internet comments have not won us any converts at all over the years; clearly the Internet has won us many converts; it just has not won us enough converts.
Fiction and film are the way to go for spreading our ideas into the culture, not the Internet. Think about how The Da Vinci code dominated national discourse for so long. That’s what we need, a work of fiction or film that will get people talking. Basically, we need a talented WN fiction writer to write our equivalent of Uncle Tom’s Cabin. If a skilled WN novelist could actually pull that off, it might create a significant ripple in the culture because it would resonate with what White people are seeing and feeling in their day to day lives.
The other reason I donated money to Pat Buchanan was that there was no credible WN alternative ready to take my donation, and there still isn’t.
I do not believe that there is a electoral solution to our current situation. Many here, if not most, will agree with that. Even if we expelled all the illegals tomorrow, and their anchor babies too. Even if we stopped all further legal immigration. We simply have too many non-Whites with high birthrates to accompany their high crime rates and general hostility to Whites. I include cheating Orientals and Hindus, and lying Jews in that category, btw. So what is the point of electoral politics?
1. To promote division. Elections require people to choose sides, and the greater the difference, real or perceived, between the sides, the greater the divisions among the people. Since we believe that the divisions are already there, it’s only a matter of people recognizing them.
2. To discredit the government and our other enemies. We already know that a government that systematically discriminates against White men, and refuses to protect our borders, is an alien occupier. When the Feds go to court to prevent a state from enforcing the laws the people support, D.C. is making our point for us.
3. To sort the people out geographically. Whether you think it will come down to The Big Collapse, The Big Fight, and The Big Cull, or a gradual de facto secession of the White states from the Dark ones, having your territory occupied by your own people is a huge advantage. Extracting enclaves of unwanteds is a real burden. Better to disemploy those Mexicans at the packing plant, or cut off welfare to those Somalis nice and legal-like, before the riots start.
Politics is war by other means.
Politics is built on top of the averaged out opinions of millions of individuals. Every time you move an individual one step in a WN direction you change that average.
Whether it’s moving someone from
– liberal to neutral
– neutral to worried
– worried to civic nationalist
– civic nationalist to ethno-nationalist
it all changes the foundation that politics must conform to.
So, as an individual i’d say a good aim would be to try and shift at least 50 people a year at least one step in a WN direction. There’s no doubt many different ways of doing it but if you keep that as an aim you probably won’t go far wrong.
Is it really fair to use a fed and ADL run guerilla theatre troupe as a straw man? This “NSM” can’t be for real, it’s just too wacky and too much like the stereotypical clowns in the Blues Brothers movie. This has to be a tool of the left to try discredit conservatives.
Mr. Dithers:
I started to respond to Hunter’s straw man party, but noticed you already said much of what I was going to say.
Hunter thinks he’s groundbreaking. He believes he’s come up with this new idea that’s never been tried before. By golly, this square peg is gonna fit into that round hole this time. Have no fear, Hunter is on it!
The NSM and Hunter share a common bond. The former is effectively ineffective in it’s attempt to help White Americans, while the latter is effectively insignificant to the plight of those same White Americans. They should team up and form the ultimate comedy duo.
Nightowl says:
True. It’s interesting the NSM keeps showing up to poison discourse in Arizona and Tennessee where anti-immigrant sentiment is very strong.
Regarding the possibility of Neo-Nazis actually being ADL employees: Communist parties used to assign members to take up certain careers. Not every Red could be a nuclear scientist or a Senator, but they could be teachers, journalists, and clergy, and live out their lives quietly spreading their cancer. The Reds having metamorphed into liberals, it’s entirely possible that they’ve kept their old, successful tactics. Surely, organized anti-Whitedom has the resources to keep a few pseudo Nazis on the payroll.
One element of HWs approach that appeals to me right now is this idea of “adapting WN rhetoric” to fit where people are “right now.”
Maybe it’s not a new or original insight; Mr. Dithers and others are right about that, but at the same time, HW is right that few in our circles have really taken the mainstream approach seriously the last 15 – 20 years. We have the examples of the Duke campaigns, Amrem and CCofC and that’s about it.
Apart from these three examples, the general trend within American WN the last 15 – 20 years has been the radical “reject the system” and that hasn’t worked either.
This much is clear to me. Our starting point has to be engagement with mainstream in some form, if not in HWs form than in some form.
We will never shift anyone in a more radical direction and out of the system if we can’t get their ear first. This is so basic. Vanguard radicalism, European political theory, anti-Christianity, and anti-Americanism, whatever their alleged merits, won’t get peoples’ ear. They just won’t. In fact, they will only do the exact opposite — drive people away.
Using Wandrin’s concept above, for example, how do you influence a civic nationalist toward racial nationalism with an anti-Christian program when most civic nationalists are kosher con Christians?
It can’t be done.
This is the problem with the radical approach. It keeps people locked in the system.
And doing nothing until “the collapse” also does what in the meantime?
Keeps people in the system.
And completely abandoning mainstream politics until the collapse also does what?
Ensures that our most hardcore enemies have all the power when the system finally does collapse.
If the system collapses tomorrow morning, the likely result will be martial law with Barack Obama, Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano in charge.
I’d rather have Jim DeMint and Jeff Sessions or someone like them running things when the collapse finally does occur. Yeah, they’re system guys, but I’d rather take my chances with them than with Holder.
Even though there will be no electoral solution to our most fundamental problems, totally rejecting the mainstream in the meantime makes no sense for many reasons.
Discard:
I do not believe that there is a electoral solution to our current situation.
The ballot-box is and always has been a mirror of socialization. In simple terms: Before the famines, North-Koreans would have voted for the Kim Il-Sung dynasty, overwhelmingly — maybe wobbling weakly between two ideologically-close wings of the Kim Il-Sung dynasty every few years, but never straying beyond it — because they were taught to do so. It’s that simple. It’s no different anywhere.
What is needed is to get people to reject the system, reject their own socialization, reject PC politics. Not easy. Most regulars here have already done that in their own lives. The early Tea Party was perhaps as good an example as there has been in living memory of such a mass-movement. That’s before it was “kosher-con-icized” and neutralized.
It is the angry, alienated people like Celestial Time who are the ultimate bearers of change.
Fear not the clowns.
Nightowl:
Is it really fair to use a fed and ADL run guerilla theatre troupe as a straw man?
That group of “let’s-shock-the-bourgeoisie” costume-wearing clowns and federal-agents do get publicity. Moreso than anything serious people like HW have ever done. In that sense, it is fair for HW to attack them. (In the sense of alleging they represent a serious wing of U.S. racialism, it is not fair.)
Maybe a better question to ask is, how can the serious racialists like HW get more publicity for their ideas than these media-promoted costume-morons?
<LEW:
the general trend within American WN the last 15 – 20 years has been the radical “reject the system” and that hasn’t worked either. This much is clear to me. Our starting point has to be engagement with mainstream in some form
There can be a fusion of the two: A mainstream organization that embraces those who reject the system.
It’s been done before. Very recent examples could be the Ron Paul movement in ’07, which evolved into the early Tea Party.
“Rejecting the system” doesn’t have to mean metaphorically going underground and withdrawing from all politics.
Hunter Wallace says:
“1.) We can “shut up and blend in” and work within the system to deport illegals, end birthright citizenship, crackdown on employers, cut legal immigration, militarize the border, and build the border fence.
In other words, we can win.
2.) Alternatively, we can join the NSM when they rally in Phoenix with their swastika flags, and spend the afternoon contesting for public opinion with clowns and anarchists.
In other words, we can lose.”
Hunter, this either/or scenario is a product of you growing up under the duopoly that is our political system and functions in such a way to encourage factionalism but not to truly serve the people who are on either side.
There IS option #3 and I believe that Kevin MacDonald and his attempt to use Implicit White Nationalism to reach the unawakened has been more successful. In case none of you are familiar with his background, he was prominent in the anti-war movement during Vietnam and hob-nobbed with a lot of the leadership which was composed of Jews. In not so many words now, Mac implies he was used as a Judas Goat of sorts. In any case, he had a chance to observe his anti-war confederates in action and later used his own field of evolutionary psychology to study what makes Jews so successful. His training in psychology (which was created by Jews for a way to control White Gentiles) has given him some idea of how to help Whites recover their sense of self-preservation.
Reading some of his words, it looks to me like he has found a way to take several Vanguardist themes of explicit White Nationalism and find a way to modify their message to one of implicit White Nationalism, that is masquerading as an aracial one. MacDonald was the mind behind the meme circulated throughout the Tea Parties that there was “an alienated elite” hostile to the people they governed on both sides of the duopoly. His message was further disseminated to talk radio and other conservative media. There are other implicit White Nationalist messages that are out there and if ALL WNists got in the habit of creating and using these messages then the unawakened White masses would start acting and voting White racial interests without thinking about it.
Of course, as the violently angry and hysterical reaction to the Tea Party by the Usual Suspects has demonstrated, there will be racial grievance hustlers who will make the racism charge stridently and repeatedly even though, in doing so, they look pretty damned foolish, because this is Sally Suburban and Joe Six Pack just going to primaries, picking, and voting for candidates they like. Thus, they max out the race card, the charges of racism look increasingly hollow, because it’s not like a bunch of Neo-Nazis are goose-stepping all over Main Street, USA.
By no means, do I EVER want to see the Vanguardists disbanded though. They may come in handy as those confronting Tea Party activists get more strident and … I hate to say it … violent. And I believe that could and would happen as Whites take back more political inroads. I could see the day when some New Black Panthers or Mestizo brown shirts converge on a site where Tea Partiers are organizing and I wouldn’t mind it at all if the NSM and other Vanguardists are a phone call away to push back.
For all of Glenn Beck’s mawkish adoration of “Marchin’ Lootin’ KillING,’ America’s “Ghandi” had the implicit threat of White America having to deal with the Black Panthers, the Black Muslims and other even more radical, more violent organizations if they didn’t work with him. For that reason, I don’t like the total repudiation of the Vanguardist approach to things. Naturally, I would prefer the ballot to be more powerful than the bullet. However, I am reasonably sure that if we didn’t have the bullet, the TP successes would not have been respected whatsoever by the entrenched GOP NeoCons and their entrenched liberal leftist allies. NOTHING should be removed from the table when it comes to securing our interests, even Vanguardist tactics, as a last resort, when everything else has failed.
Greg Johnson says:
“I like Buchanan’s books and recommend them as gateway drugs. But it is more Hunter Wallace fantasism to think that he is one of us. When Pat Buchanan put Ezola Foster on his Presidential ticket, exactly what White Nationalist principle was he popularizing there?”
There may have been method to his madness with putting Ezola Foster on the ticket. For one thing EF may have been a visual denial to anyone trying to pin the “racist” handle on him. For another, he may have seen EF as a strong Negro voice for American Nationalism. IOW she may have agreed with him on virtually everything concerning his platform.
WNists make the mistake that ALL American nationalists have to be White. Just as, during the 19th century, the attitude is that only WASPs and maybe Scandinavian or German Lutherans could be American Nationalists. I freely admit that this country and its ideals were created and founded by WASPs. Neither branch of my family is Anglo Saxon or Protestant, but we immigrated to the USA, because we recognized their success, admired their principals and wanted to adopt them. I could never go back to Europe and communicate freely or be familiar with the customs or history or tongue of Poland, France or the German part of Switzerland which different branches of my family originated from. As an American reared in Anglo-American traditions, I feel as close spiritually to England as any American whose people came to Plymouth Rock or Jamestown.
Now, I realize that, thanks to the machinations of some members of a supranationalist religious ethnicity that Michelle “This is the first time in my adult life that I have felt proud of my Country” Obama may be the norm rather than the exception where Non-White Americans are concerned. But there is a better than even chance that there are Non-White Americans whose interests converge with those of White Nationalists. Just as my families’ interests have converged with those of WASPs.
The point is though the WASP founders were talking about creating a country for “our posterity,” they kept their language secular, non-ethnic and aracial for whatever reason and made American Nationalists of non-WASP Whites like my family and possibly many Non-Whites as well.
IMO, the future success of the Tea Party hinges on how smoothly it can transition itself to an American Nationalist Party. Eventually I would like to SEE an independent organization calling itself The American Nationalist Party. I think it could be successful because, unlike the BNP which explicitly represents indigenous Britons (White), it could not be discredited as some White Supremacist movement.
Clytemnestra, that is a good post until you start talking about including nonwhites within “American nationalism” and then scorn the BNP for only representing “whites”.
Nationalism without a basis in biology is like a novel written without a basis in a language.
Clytemnestra:
there is a better than even chance that there are Non-White Americans whose interests converge with those of White Nationalists. Just as my families’ interests have converged with those of WASPs.
American nationalists through the 1930s supported blacks in their own nationalism and separatism. Marcus Garvey and the Populist-Klan of the 1920s were mutual admirers. Both dreamed of a better world of a brotherhood of nations, and hated the soul-numbing specter of Integration.
Evidence suggests that even Lincoln supported expatriation, building up black ethnostates elsewhere, peopling them with freed Southern slaves. Lincoln pilfered war money to send several ships-full of captured blacks to the Caribbean. He proposed the idea of postwar mass expatriation more than once.
Buchanan fired some campaign staffers. He ran with Ezola Foster on his ticket as Vice President.
These criticisms are laughable compared to what a President Buchanan could have done for us in office with patronage, appointment powers, and leadership on tough issues like immigration, multiculturalism, affirmative action, Israel, and foreign wars. The last decade might have worked out well for us if Buchanan was leaving office in 2008.
Bob Whitaker is right that vanguardists will search for any reason to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Yes, I have.
Working within the system got us Proposition 187. Whining and crying on the sidelines got us nothing.
Rush Limbaugh was a celebrity in the mid-1990s.
Correction: The Republican Governor of California, Pete Wilson, appealed Prop 187 and fought to keep it on the books. Doesn’t this run contrary to the vanguardist theory that all “system politicians” are worthless.
Prop 187 eventually made its way to the Ninth Circus where it died after Gray Davis, the Democrat, was elected Governor. Well, the major consequence of that was Davis being just another “system politician” dropped the appeal in the courts.
The proper lesson to learn from Prop 187 is that there are real differences between “system politicians” and that we can’t afford to sit out elections when our interests are at stake.
Please note that Jan Brewer won reelection in Arizona over Goddard this election cycle. If Goddard the Democrat had been elected, he too would have killed the appeal. Fortunately, that didn’t happen because the vast majority of White people in Arizona were not paying attention to vanguardists who want SB 1070 to similarly lose in the courts.
When Gray Davis was elected Governor, he killed the lawsuit. The moral of the story is that elections have consequences.
That’s quite a bit of revisionism. According to the vanguardist theory, there never should have been a Prop 187 in the first place because the “system politicians” are all on the same side. As a result, elections are worthless.
And speaking about bloviating on the air waves, the vanguardists can’t even get on radio, and do absolutely nothing else but complain about how horrible our problems are and how they will counterintuitively get better as the objective conditions on the ground get worse.
The defeat of Prop 187 should have led to a major victory for White people under the vanguardist’s “worse is better” theory. In California, “worse is better” triumphed and while life got worse for Whites in that state, the political system didn’t get any better.
(1) Working within the system got us Prop 187 in the first place.
(2) By sitting out the election, Gray Davis was elected as a Democrat Governor. He killed the appeal of Prop 187 to pander to Hispanic voters.
(3) This proves that elections have consequences.
(4) If the defeat of mainstream measures like Prop 187 is supposed to result in a secret victory for White people, what victory can vanguardists point to in California, aside from the loss of Los Angeles and much of Southern California which are now overrun by illegal aliens?
(1) Unlike in California, Gov. Jan Brewer was reelected in Arizona, and will continue to appeal the lawsuit until it reaches the Supreme Court.
(2) The 9th Circus has already signaled that it will be reinstating portions of SB 1070.
(3) Whatever happens at the 9th Circus, SB 1070 will go to the Supreme Court where the conservative majority will uphold the law. Please note that “worse is better” got us Sotomayor and Kagan on the Supreme Court without producing any tangible benefits for White Nationalists.
(4) Other states are in other federal districts and their lawsuits won’t have to go through the 9th Circus which has a reputation for being more liberal.
(5) Working within the system is how our enemies stacked those federal courts in the first place. The only way to undo that damage is through replacing them with more conservative leaning appointments. The vanguardist alternative is to sit on the sidelines, complain on the internet, and do nothing to reverse our decline.
That’s unlikely to happen because the Supreme Court is the final authority on the matter. To his credit, perhaps the one good thing that Bush did while in office was put Alito and Roberts on the SCOTUS.
In the event that we lose in the courts, we will stir up further animosity against federal judges and either purge them through elections (as we recently saw in the Iowa State Supreme Court) and systematically knocked them off with federal appointments.
Judges is one issue where we can build coalitions with the broader right and where we have the winds of public opinion blowing into our sails.
The better question is what do vanguardists plan to do if SB 1070 is struck down in the courts. Oh wait … we already have our answer. Join the NSM and rally in the streets of Phoenix. Unite behind the Satanist Neo-Nazi Cliff Herrington and live in a fantasy world where the triumph of the Fourth Reich is imminent.
If Gray Davis hadn’t been elected Governor of California, Prop 187 would have been successfully appealed. Isn’t it interesting how vanguardists point to getting what they wanted (in this case, the defeat of Prop 187) as evidence that the mainstreamer approach doesn’t work? Having got what they wanted, the effective result of “worse is better” was that California was nearly lost.
If the system is totally corrupt, why did a majority of California voters get the opportunity to vote on Prop 187 and pass it with a huge majority. Why did the Republican being a “system politician” under your theory fight the lawsuits by appealing the measure? In hindsight, wouldn’t it have been better if Gray Davis hadn’t been elected Governor of California and Prop 187 would have been upheld upon appeal?
The victories of conservatives look like the Colossus of Rhodes compared to the whining, griping, and irrelevance of White Nationalist vanguardists. In the case of Prop 187, which was spearheaded by conservatives, we lost because elections have consequences for White people and there are real differences between the two parties, which is exactly the opposite of what the vanguardists say.
California is the ultimate proving ground for the “worse is better” theory. In California, Prop 187 would have survived in the mainstreamers had won. Instead, the vanguardists got their way and the result was disaster and borderline ethnic cleansing for White people in Southern California.
Things got worse in California, but they did not get better. Arizona won’t go the way of California because Jan Brewer, unlike Pete Wilson, defeated her Democratic opponent and can now press the appeal of SB 1070 to the Supreme Court.
I rest my case!
Correction: fifth paragraph should read “If the federal courts……” and not “If the courts federal……”.
Jack,
Your reply to my post didn’t make any sense. I’m not sure what Murfreesboro, TN, the Amish, and learning a second language have to do with the debate. If learning a second language would force illegals to scurry for the border then sign me up.
I thought this site was a free exchange of ideas but increasingly it’s turned into an echo chamber for mainstream white nationalism which is really conservatism with a sprinkling of white racialism. I’ve never said this approach is bad or shouldn’t be part of a multifaceted strategy but it, like vanguard WN, also has shortcomings that its proponents refuse to acknowledge.
C’mon! Haven’t you learned anything by now?
Shut up, blend in. Put your left foot in, put your left foot out…….. Grazing begins at 0900.
Limbaugh has been in the spotlight for a lot longer than I had realized. I remember William Shatner portrayed a killer obviously based on Limbaugh in a Columbo episode. The other day I looked up the episode on IMDB and was shocked it was from 1993. So early, I had thought it would have been 1997 or so. At the time it aired, I remember Limbaugh had been famous for years, and G. Gordon Liddy also had a big show at the time so Talk Radio must have taken off in the late 80s at the latest.
Mr. Dithers says:
November 14, 2010 at 11:45 pm
“Jack,
Your reply to my post didn’t make any sense. I’m not sure what Murfreesboro, TN, the Amish, and learning a second language have to do with the debate.
I thought this site was a free exchange of ideas but increasingly it’s turned into an echo chamber for….”
JR replies:
Yes, it does make sense. The points are simple, easy to understand.
Get back in to society – there are plenty of great, local places that are very White – move there, work with the local Whites, promote the 14 words through existing institutions. If you have some skills in politics, work on local elections – avoid pie in the sky fantasy worlds and if you are alienating 98% of the local White population, the problem is YOU not THEM.
And if you can’t stand mainstream American society, can’t compete to win anything in the current “system” then get out, get away and try to do something positive in a White counter culture, alternative culture – the Amish are one such very successful White counter culture. And if you can’t find anything, anything at all to do or a decent place to live and work in the USA as it exists this year 2010 – then consider moving to some other White country.
But sitting around and complaining, spreading negativity, getting jealous and angry that lots of American Whites are competing well and actually WINNING in politics, that’s not what you need to be doing.
LEW wrote:
Hail wrote:
Exactly. Agree 100%.
But…
My impression is that trying to model Ron Paul and the Tea Party would require entanglements with “the system” that WN vanguardists regard as a waste of time.
Is this not correct?
100% True.
But similarly, working in and around the system doesn’t have to mean forsaking explicit racialism and dissolving one’s self into system oblivion either.
This site is anything but an echo chamber of conservative talking points. The vanguardists have been given free reign in my comment threads to challenge my point of view. They have been given every opportunity to make their case.
Couldn’t the vanguardists better spend their time persuading our enemies to drop out of the system?
I would rather persuade Hunter to drop completely into it.
@ Lew:
You summed it up perfectly concerning the need for pro-White films. A well written, low-budget movie sympathetic to Whites could do wonders to shift the White masses to our side. It may do more than a political party. Alas, it comes down lack of WN organizing and pulling in the talent needed to pull this off.
I’ve seen excellent independent movies made for 15k. It can be done. It should be done. I’d willingly donate time and money to see a project like that get off the ground.
Marc Rosenblum on the prospects for amnesty in the incoming Congress:
http://www.capitolnewsconnection.org/news/immigration-reform-outlook-new-congress-bleak
To SR Davidson,
Merlin Miller at Americana Pictures is engaged in creating exactly that.
He’s a White film-school-trained producer who got shafted by Jewish Hollywood. Since Mel Gibson showed how a movie can be distributed outside the Hollywood distribution machine and still make money, and since computers can create fantastic effects on the cheap, he is planning pro-White movies and is recruiting with the intention to train non-Jewish talent from the Heartland that hasn’t been corrupted by Hollywood. I believe right now he’s working on a film of the US Liberty story.
http://www.americana-pictures.com/