United States, 1850
Great stuff … it sheds light on the 313Chris vs. Stonelifter feud.
Welcome back to our series on manly honor. Today we tackle Southern honor in the 19 th century. Now, be prepared: this is and will be the longest post in the series by far. The complexity of traditional honor and its various cultural manifestations cannot possibly be underestimated, nor can the difficulty in distilling these complexities into an accessible, coherent narrative. We have done our best with that task so far, and here as well; however, understanding Southern honor requires a more in-depth exploration. We could have just sketched out the very basics, but truly grasping those basics necessitates an understanding of the framework which underlies them. Also, as we shall see, because the South’s culture of honor still influences that region today, it’s a good subject to become knowledgeable about if you want to understand the country. Plus, it’s just really interesting! …
In our last post, I said that Northern and Southern honor would be covered in one article, and that future posts would be shorter. Neither turned out to be true. Well, this one is a little shorter, but we’re giving Northern and Southern honor their own posts – there’s just too much interesting stuff to cover. And as all my projections have been wrong thus far, I will refrain from making any more moving forward. Just come along for the ride!
An exploration of honor in the American North during the 19 th century offers a fascinating framework from which to build on and expand many of the concepts we discussed in our post on Victorian England’s Stoic-Christian honor code, while also digging into the tensions that emerged as a result of its creation – tensions that are still with us today. So if you haven’t read that post yet, I recommend doing so before jumping into this one….
From what oral tradition that has come down to me, my ancestors saw Northerners, the way we see big city Black & Latino gangbangers today. LOL.
Doesn’t this belong on your Dixie blog?
The “Stiff upper lip” stoicism of anglo-saxon northerners has nothing in common with “urban” gangbanger “honor culture”.
It’s been said before but bears repeating that much of nigger “culture” was ripped off from the southern aristocrats they looked up to. Nigger culture and blood feuds are a highly stylized version of old-tyme southern culture, it has nothing in common with northern WASPs.
Southern 1,000%! Stonewall Jackson and Robert E.Lee! Go Sonelifter!
The ante-bellum South didn’t have the big cities that the North did. The South did not develop that way. Even the larger Southern cities like Richmond and Atlanta were not much more than large towns compared to New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago, etc. etc.
To Southerners, the Northern city was the breeding ground of gangsters and every other evil.
Is this not 313Chris?
” Honor for the roughs was very much like the primal honor of ancient times – centered on physical prowess and strength, and proven through physical feats and plenty of fighting. The austere self-control of the upper classes was disdained, and camaraderie was built through unchecked aggression, boisterous noise, rowdy behavior, heavy drinking, and licentious indulgence. In place of the middle-class emphasis on sentimentality and sincerity, roughs engaged in constant mocking, teasing, and what one contemporary called “relentless sarcasm.”
Roughs were always challenging and testing each other and getting into brawls to prove who was stronger and more “game.” Honor was premised on never letting another man dominate you. At a great remove from the white-collar work of the expanding middle class, roughs earned honor and status through the giving and receiving of pain, as they were either unable or unwilling to acquire it through the climbing of the economic ladder. More well-off gentlemen thought it was the latter; because a central tenet of the Stoic-Christian honor code was its democratic nature – that any man who so willed it could, at least hypothetically, cultivate its traits – men who refused to do so were shamed, and seen as despicable.”
So the Northern upper classes were sterile, self repressed fanatics?
Northern Liberalism is just a modern day expression of those same values. All liberals have added to the toxic mix, is a self sterilizing hatred of their own kind – that being Christianity and Whites in general.
100 largest US cities in 1860:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027/tab09.txt
The roughs (whatever their ethnicity) were ‘poor white trash.’
The modern filmed treatments of it come easily to mind- Leonardo Di Caprio in Titanic, Debbie Reynolds in ‘Unsinkable Molly Brown,’ the film “The Fight Club,’ just to name a few.
Watching GWTW was my first introduction to Southern Chivalry. But, yes, I would say that any pretend ‘affrontery’ ex-slaves exhibit today, comes as a direct result of ‘acting uppity’ from aping their betters- the Dixie White Gentility.
@Hunter
“Is this not 313Chris?”
– I dunno… maybe a little? Certainly in my time and place, working-class ethnic whites and their neighborhoods were, for all intents, the protective barrier that kept the Northern WASPS a comfortable distance from the niggers. Being sandwiched between these two groups who despised us equally, we developed a viciousness and a confrontational personality out of pure necessity. I make no apologies for my people surviving how they must.
My fighting with Stonelifter on here may have begun out of Northern ethnic reflex confrontationalism vs. Southern male social honor, but it has long crossed into something personal, and will have to be settled in person. Anyway, I won’t continue it on these threads.
I’ve locked horns with other people on here such as John, but that is a matter of national pride, and Rudel, because in his case it’s just plain fun. Rudel is actaully one of my favorite commentors here.
Finally, this:
“The roughs (whatever their ethnicity) were poor white trash.”
– Be careful who you spit on, “Fr.” John+ — That Eastern Orthodox Christianity of which you claim to be a cleric, was and is the religion and cultural anchor of many a rough working-class Serb, Albanian, and Greek here in Detroit and other Northern industrial cities. A hell of a long time before you ever started purporting yourself as such.
It rings true.
I have been too busy today to finish reading the Southern essay.
I’m researching a place in St Louis called Bloody Island. Well, technically it is in Illinois. Anyway, duelists used to settle accounts there. It has a remarkable place in winnowing down the politicians, lawyers and shysters in Missouri.
There is a curious connection to Robert Lee. He was the chief engineer who landfilled the channels that made Bloody Island into just another river bank. I’m a fan of dueling culture.
http://books.google.com/books?id=usEiFvrXbF8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dueling+code&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sIrfULmpBYme8QTK2oCABA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Whenever anybody commences to swear the rest sing out ‘English language, English language in this tent.’” (Interesting fact: 5,223 men were court-martialed for the use of profanity during the war, in violation of the 83rd Article of War requiring conduct appropriate to one’s status as an “officer and a gentleman.”)
The comment above was not finished, when posted by mistake. I thought the quotation expressed well the nature of so-called “northern” honour, and I intended to add the following quote that describes “southern honor” well:
“Just as in medieval times, ‘might made right’ in the American South. If a man could physically dominate or kill someone who accused him of dishonesty, that man maintained his reputation as a man of integrity (even if the accusations were in fact true).”
English language, truth, moral self-discipline, seven-days-a-week Christianity VERSUS the ethic of the mastery of swearing, gambling, fighting, feuding….
And then there were the “northern roughs,” with their most “primitive” notion of right, who were drafted to pillage and rape in the south.
And then there were the “northern roughs,” with their most “primitive” notion of right, who were drafted to pillage and rape in the south.
It is an interesting article that doesn’t really seem to support one side over the others, but only one of them can be right. Either the maintenance of spiritual health (involving moral self-mastery) is right, or else the maintenance of “reputation” through the mastery of others is more important than truth.
I would say that Southern honour and Northern ‘honour’ were put to the test back during a certain war and the Northern ‘honour’ was found very wanting in comparison to the Southern.
The real key is the motivation for fighting.
The North fights “for ideas.” The South for family. A difference is in the “white ethnics” of turn of the century Northeast, as Chris says— jews and south-and-central euro catholics were “sandwiched” between NE wasps and blacks, and formed the ‘neighborhood’ communities, based in their home country, and intermarriages. The Italian-Irish and Jewish intermarriages with them were, and are, common.
Sometimes, I think that may be the root of the News and Jews crowd— in the big cities, the catholic girls intermarry frequently with Jews. By contrast, there are still tons of North European Protestants who have never even met an actual Jew, even to this day.
Where in Ny, philly, west coast, chicago, south florida, they’ve been cozy for years.
—Another thing is how people grapple with the Scotch-Irish/ English intermix in the South. The early Tidewater Va was very deeply English. From what I always heard, the Scots tended toward the frontier and appalachians, the English, heavy on the coast.
The cultures were/are different but highly compatible, and the two groups have long accomplished a lot together, it seems. Even now the scotch-irish will see the english as “their people,” in a way that the irish-irish never did, something that has the largest implications for how they functioned in the u.s. (opening the border, voting in co-religionist non-whites, etc.). The Pelosi-biden syndrome.
John, I hope you post more about Bloody Island. Fascinating.
The article described “southern honor” as involving the display of might, as in “might makes right,” and “northern honor” as involving some of the CALVINIST “signs of election”: including especially the display of wealth-making through successful effort in trade or production. But the article overlooks the Biblical CHRISTIAN (as opposed to Calvinist) understanding of honour that is neither economically nor violently dominating: to be a humble Christ-like SERVANT. Such honour exists in every state and region.
Re: “Scotch-Irish”: It should be “Scots-Irish” here, or “Ulster Scots” over there. The article also says that the “Scotch-Irish” were those who came from everywhere else in the British Isles but England proper, which is simply wrong:
“Hailing from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, and the English Uplands, these Scotch-Irish peoples made up perhaps half of the South’s population by 1860….”
The Welsh, Cornish and Breton, at least, are Brythonic, not Gaelic, by language, culture and genetics. The Irish do not wish to be counted as Ulster-Scots either.
Dixiegirl, one of the most purely English and Protestant regions is the southern Del-Mar-Va peninsula, including everything south of the canal, or at least everything south of Kent — a very conservative region trapped within the very liberal, Obama-electing states of Delaware, Maryland and Virginia.
Dixiegirl says:
December 30, 2012 at 3:38 pm
“The real key is the motivation for fighting. The North fights “for ideas.” The South for family. ”
That pretty much explains Bob Whitaker’s concept of “Wordism”.
Wordism is a loyalty to ever changing opinions, rather than loyalty to your own flesh and blood. In short, Wordism is SILLY.
Or as I think it was Horus explained it:
Anytime any White rabbit replaces their organic identity with an abstract principal……..that abstract principal becomes wordism. In short, you will see this happen in White rabbits every time they put some ISM in front of being White. (that is a simplified explanation).
So it seems Ole Bob among other things, is teaching part of the old Southern honor code.
Conservatism is not “loyalty to changing opinion.” That is radicalism. Truth and right are unchanging. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.” Family and blood kin, and neighbours, are important to conservatives, but sin is sin and neither blood nor might make right. Truth and right are unchanging. The Ever-living WORD is unchanging. True, Christian, conservatives are those who “live out” the Word — and thus they are Wordists, at least in that sense. The followers of the original radical, rebel, Satan are the non-conservatives.
I saw Django Unchained last night with about a 90% black audience. There was a lot of hooting, clapping and yelling as Jamie Foxx massacred the White Southerners. Most of the Southerners were depicted in ways that make the white folks who run contemporary meth labs look like royalty in comparison. In one scene, a white Southerner whips a young female black, tied to a tree, for breaking eggs, while quoting the Bible. Django Unchained also absurdly exaggerated the extent to which slaves were treated cruelly, and falsified history (the film claims slave owners used slaves as gladiators in fights to the death). Not the blacks in the audience understood this (or the few hipster whites there for that matter).
This was a Jewish film from beginning to end.
Mosin Nagant says:
” Truth and right are unchanging. ”
Spoken like a Wordist.
As for what is “Truth and right”, they are just your opinions of what is “True and right” at this point in time. Next week your opinions will be different, just like the words you were loyal to were different when you were younger.
What is true and right, are just the opinions of men and 10s of millions of opinions are created by every week. The only reality in this world is flesh and blood.
A Wordist does not care if his people are replaced by non-Whites, as long as those non-White replacements are loyal to the same opinions he is.
I hope you didn’t pay them money to see it, and then, adding to the audience total gives them encouragement to produce more sequels….
The ever-living Word of God that BECAME flesh and blood is reality, the most important reality. Not merely “a different opinion,” but the Truth that makes us free.
Will take your word for it, Mosin. Have driven around— but most of what I saw was under siege; also, think of the Chesapeake Bay area as overtaken by military, just b/c of what I saw further down around Virginia Beach.
Anyway, this northern code of “honor” is just about money. And “melting pot,” which means “all inclusivity,” and “universalism,” which was just an excuse to take over other people’s living spaces.
Heard a story from over Christmas about somebody’s (southern) Yankified relatives. They were condemning joining any form of “lineage” groups, saying it was dishonorable, because it was “NOT INCLUSIVE!,” and so, not just anybody could join. (In other words: it was not BASED IN AN IDEA that anybody could have.)
—The white-and-normal person said: well then, what is the basis for ANY FAMILY? (lol) If you get married and have a baby— it it really FAIR? After all, everybody cannot be your biological SON! Or biological daughter!
There was a long silence. But then the psychotic said: “Well you can adopt now, so it’s ok.”
—A real life Christmas dinner conversation related to me, circa 2013.
Re: “10s of millions of opinions are created every week”:
“Let God be true and every man a liar” — “The wisdom of men is foolishness with God” !
— Seems true about Bob Whitaker. I’ve wondered if he’s related to the earliest Whitakers, as there was a minister on the Virginia coast by that name, around 1620 or so. Despite the narrative here about Barbados populating South Carolina (where Bob Whitaker is), settlements also fanned up and down the coast from the area where Jamestown was, from around that time of 1616, onward.
“Have driven around— but most of what I saw was under siege”:
Dixiegirl, I meant the Eastern Shore, the Delmarva peninsula, not the Tidewater on the western side. I knew Delmarva in the past, but of course I would EXPECT it is “under siege” now, and subject to transplantation and multiculturisation, by now — like EVERY place, even the mountain fastnesses of central Appalachia, is now.
“Anyway, this northern code of ‘honor’ is just about money. And ‘melting pot,’ which means ‘all inclusivity,’ and ‘universalism,’ which was just an excuse to take over other people’s living spaces.”
I despise the false “honor” of those who seek to be rich, who are proud of their wealth and revel in the power they wield by it.
Northern honor? Who ever heard of such nonsense? Plain crazy talk.
Everybody knows that honor among yankees is like virtue among prostitutes.
Deo Vindice
Mosin Nagant says:
“The ever-living Word of God that BECAME flesh and blood is reality, the most important reality. Not merely “a different opinion,” but the Truth that makes us free.”
None of your quotes mention the existence of White people at all.
When your loyalty to words means the unnamed White race must die in pursuit of Universalism, that is not a healthy word loyalty to have.
As for Conservatives, they are just as anti-White as Liberals are, because they are not loyal to their own people. If you think Conservatism is so grand, then the open border Republican Party must look good to you, because they are the party that Conservatives vote for.
The fact is, White Conservatives are just as Wordist as White Liberals are.
If you are non-White and agree to believe in low taxes and endless external wars, White Conservatives will welcome you into America to replace them.
So all problems begin, with people that are loyal to abstract principles, instead of being loyal to their own people.
Existence must come before all else.
Why should I care about the opinions of Jesus/Karl Marx/Ronald Reagan/Ron Paul, etc if in following those opinions, my race, the White race, will no longer exist in 100 years?
Why should I care if a Mexican/Africa/Arab/Asian follows these words if the White race no longer exists?
Existence comes before any words.
“None of your quotes mention the existence of White people at all. When your loyalty to words means the unnamed White race must die in pursuit of Universalism, that is not a healthy word loyalty to have. As for Conservatives, they are just as anti-White as Liberals are, because they are not loyal to their own people.”
(1) I was quoting Scripture, AWAE. (2) True Christianity IS loyalty to the Word, but not “loyalty to words” nor “the pursuit of Universalism.” (3) Finally, true conservatism is not the false “Conservatism” you reference.
Mosin Nagant says:
None of your quotes mention White people at all.
That should be:
@Mosin Nagant;
None of your quotes mention White people at all.
“Why should I care about the opinions of Jesus…?”
The choice of apostasy or infidelity and worldliness is really the root cause of all our white calamities. The more we reject God, the more weapons and other “devices we will seek” to protect ourselves, and even those won’t save us.
Why should I care about the opinions of Jesus
…
if in following those opinions, my race, the White race, will no longer exist in 100 years?
Time to post a youtube video tailor-made for people like you, by an oddball but good egg former Jew turned Orthodox Christian.
Brother Nathanael is an example of why VNN’ers faces should be met with bricks when they talk about killing Jews.
The Scripture speaks of “Greeks and barbarians,” “the Gentiles” (literally nations, or peoples), “sons of Japeth,” etc., referring directly or indirectly to Whites. I cannot quote you ANY Scripture that says what you are demanding. It is what it is.
This is not really a digression. We are speaking of concepts, true and false, of what is honour. Our Western civilisation based on the New Testament of Jesus Christ has a code of honour distinct from any other. It was not mentioned in the article on “The Art of Manliness.”
“It’s been said before but bears repeating that much of nigger “culture” was ripped off from the southern aristocrats they looked up to. Nigger culture and blood feuds are a highly stylized version of old-tyme southern culture, it has nothing in common with northern WASPs.” – I disagree, their culture springs from who they are as a people. To the extent that they aren’t carbon copies of Africans, that would be because of our influence on them, which only exists for so long as we exert it.
“Go Sonelifter!”
Been awhile since he posted. He is in a warzone fighting the Taliban and spreading the love of Christ and ideas of southern independence among some of our finest. Keep him in your prayers guys.
Everything outside of mouth-clicking and fornication was learned from Freegroes by their masters.