Northwest Debate

Hardball with Hunter Wallace

Northwest Republic

Some commentators over at Counter-Currents have been taking potshots at Harold Covington in the Northwest Migration debate.

Unsurprisingly, Greg Johnson has been censoring the comments for nothing but softballs can be thrown at Herr Covington.

How about we play a round of hardball? The discussion over there has gotten a little boring. I want to see a real game.

(1) Demographically, the Pacific Northwest is not the lily White paradise that Harold Covington has made it out to be – Here are the latest numbers from the 2010 Census:

Washington: 74.6 percent White.

Oregon: 79.6 percent White.

Idaho: 84.5 percent White.

For the record, the whitest states in America are: #1. Maine, #2. Vermont, #3. West Virginia, #4. New Hampshire, #5. Iowa, #6. North Dakota, #7. Montana, #8. Kentucky, #9. Wyoming, and #10. Idaho.

… #11. South Dakota, #12. Minnesota, #13. Wisconsin, #14. Nebraska, #15. Indiana.

In Canada, Nova Scotia is 92 percent White, Newfoundland and Labrador are 97 percent White, New Brunswick is 97 percent White, Prince Edward Island is 98 percent White, and Quebec is 95 percent White.

By comparison, Arkansas is 75.1 percent White, Kentucky is 87.2 percent White, Missouri is 81.8 percent White, Tennessee is 76.5 percent White, Indiana is 82.7 percent White, Minnesota is 84.8 percent White, and Wisconsin is 84.6 percent White.

The Pacific Northwest isn’t anymore White than the typical Northern state. Washington and Oregon are less White than Missouri and Iowa.

(2) Ideologically, Washington and Oregon are Blue States dominated by the SWPL population that lives in the Ecotopia sub-nation that stretches along the Pacific Coast. – “The Pacific Northwest” is bisected into two distinct sub-regions by the Cascade Mountains: Ecotopia and Empty Corridor.

Portland and Seattle have far more in common with San Francisco and Vancouver than the region east of the Cascades. Boise and Couer d’Alene are more like Cheyenne and Helena than the Left Coast.

In terms of racial demographics, Washington (74.6 percent) and Oregon (79.1 percent) are about the same as Tennessee (76.5 percent) and Arkansas (75.1 percent), but with the crucial difference that the Whites who live there are more “liberal” and “moderate.”

Tennessee: 43.6 percent (conservative), 35.6 percent (moderate), 15.9 percent (liberal)

Arkansas: 45.0 percent (conservative), 36.4 percent (moderate), 14.7 percent (liberal).

Washington: 33.1 percent (conservative), 37.3 percent (moderate), 25.9 percent (liberal).

Oregon: 34.5 (conservative), 35.3 percent (moderate), 26.3 percent (liberal).

“The Pacific Northwest” concept looks especially silly when you throw Idaho into the mix.

Idaho: 48.5 percent (conservative), 34.5 percent (moderate), and 14.9 percent (liberal).

Idaho is the second most conservative state in America. It is wedged between Mississippi and Alabama. The state is far more like Wyoming and Montana than Western Oregon and Washington.

It is Empty Corridor.

(3) White Nationalists don’t have the numbers to compete with SWPLs in the Pacific Northwest – This is so obvious that it surprising the debate even continues past this point.

If every White Nationalist and sympathizer in the entire United States (250,000 being a generous estimate) moved to the I-5 corridor tomorrow, they would still be dwarfed by the number of SWPLs and non-Whites who live in the Seattle metropolitan area alone (est. 3,344,813).

In the last three years, 90,000 illegal aliens have moved to Washington and Oregon. Harold Covington’s worldwide audience isn’t anywhere close to that figure.

Tellingly, he refuses to release his settlement numbers. White Nationalists are a drop in this sea of White liberalism.

(4) The Northwest Imperative isn’t a new idea – Harold proudly calls the Northwest Imperative the Butler Plan.

What he doesn’t say is that Pastor Richard Butler, now deceased, and the Aryan Nations have been active in the Pacific Northwest since the early 1970s. When Butler died, the Aryan Nations had lost its headquarters in a SPLC lawsuit and had a worldwide membership of less than 300 people.

So, in other words, Richard Butler tried for 40 years to get White Nationalists to move to the Pacific Northwest, and for whatever reason they refused to respond to his call, unlike the 90,000 illegal aliens and the millions of SWPLs who have moved there in recent years, altering its political demography in a negative way.

(5) The Pacific Northwest isn’t any different from any other part of the country – Case in point, the SPLC lawsuit that bankrupted the Aryan Nations and resulted in the loss of their headquarters.

There is effectively no difference between hiding out in a bunker in Idaho and hiding out in grandma’s basement in Pennsylvania or Florida. The federal government has just as much power there as it does anywhere else.

(6) The Pacific Northwest has been sanctified by the blood of martyrs – Every single one of these episodes discredits Harold’s plan of resorting to violence.

– The White population of the Pacific Northwest didn’t shed any tears over The Order.

– The Order was sold out by the likes of Glenn Miller.

– The Order members have bitterly complained about being forgotten by the White Nationalist movement after they went to prison.

– The FBI adapted and changed its tactics following Ruby Ridge and Waco.

– Richard Butler was unable to form a successful White Nationalist colony in the region.

– No one but White Nationalists care about the Edgar Steele trial.

– Groups like the Montana Freemen were snuffed out by the FBI and ATF.

Let’s not forget: Joe Snuffy’s little backpack bomb in Spokane was hardly a rallying cry for the oppressed Whites of the Pacific Northwest. Quite the opposite.

If that bomb had detonated in the MLK parade, it would have ignited a huge backlash against White Nationalists living in the region, and Obama would have milked it like Clinton did with the Oklahoma City bombing.

It is a great example of the difference between fiction and non-fiction: in reality, law enforcement agencies like the FBI are not clumsy and inept, but are quite efficient at sending fools like Joe Snuffy to prison.

(7) The whole idea of a guerrilla war against the U.S. federal government is a fantasy – Let’s see Harold put on a uniform and lead the charge himself. He doesn’t even really believe his own bullshit. That is why he always includes disclaimers (i.e., this is fiction only) in his podcasts.

The U.S. military has decades of experience in fighting and beating insurgencies like the Iraq insurgency. There are now less than 100 al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.

Think about it: the U.S. military defeated an insurgency in Iraq in the heart of the Islamic world. Do you think the U.S. military can’t defeat Harold Covington, Craig Cobb, and Joe Snuffy in Washington State?

How much easier would it be for the U.S. military to operate within the United States instead of projecting overwhelming force on the other side of the planet?

(8) The collapse will take care of all our problems – White Nationalists have been saying that since George Lincoln Rockwell predicted the collapse would come in 1969 and that he would be elected president in 1972. Every year the long awaited “collapse of the system” never comes.

The Roman Empire collapsed in 1453 AD.

(9) White Nationalists are too heterogeneous to accomplish anything – George Lincoln Rockwell, for example, was assassinated by one of his own followers.

Adolf Hitler was a National Socialist, but he sold his product as a German nationalist to millions of other Germans who hated democracy and the terms of the Versailles Treaty, and they only turned to him as a last resort in light of the alternative.

Harold Covington only believes that 1,000 or so White Nationalists can plant themselves in the middle of the I-5 corridor and, surrounded by millions of SWPLs in Portland and Seattle, can create an entire nation from scratch, defeat the U.S. military on its own soil, and convert the liberal and moderate population of the Pacific Northwest to National Socialism through, I guess, talking about the martyrdom of Edgar Steele on Radio Free Northwest.

(10) Harold doesn’t have a communication strategy – What do you do about the locals? Don’t worry.

Harold has a “massive outreach strategy” (which is what?) up his sleeve. Evangelizing the public can wait until after you have made the transformative life decision to uproot yourself and move there.

It is easy to denounce conservatives for their various failings. Thinking realistically though, you have to have some type of strategy for winning over 1/3 of the people who live in Washington and Oregon, and 1/2 of the people who live in Idaho.

Do you suppose ridicule will work? Setting off bombs? If so, where is the evidence that Neo-Nazi terrorists setting off bombs works? Is that what we saw in Spokane?

Hell, what did setting off bombs even accomplish in Ireland?

(11) Pointing to Empty Corridor isn’t much of an argument – Granted, the area east of the Cascades is conservative, but that is because of the population density of the region. Eastern Washington and Oregon are politically dominated by the Left Coast.

If you are going to uproot yourself and move to the Northwest, why wouldn’t you move to somewhere like Wyoming or Idaho?

I’ve already pointed out that those states (Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota) are more conservative, more White, have favorable tax rates and land prices, and that settlers would have more of an impact there because of the smaller population.

(12) We need a metapolitical revolution – Some White Nationalists have a naive faith in the power of ideas.

Isn’t it amusing how the people who subscribe to those ideas seem to spend the majority of their time (a.) fighting with each other, (b.) navel-gazing over obscure intellectuals, and (c.) posting essays and comments in circle jerks on the internet?

The “power of ideas” can be seen in the Northwest Imperative debate: the vast majority of the anonymous people who listen to Harold Covington and agree with his ideas are just entertaining themselves for the lulz.

They have no intention of actually moving to the Pacific Northwest. How is that any different from watching American Idol on television? It is just another way to pass the time.

These intellectuals always approach every problem in an abstract way: for example, we need a “White ethnostate,” which is a generic model that doesn’t refer to any specific place; we need to build a “community,” which doesn’t refer to any specific community, only to an abstract ideal of one; we need a “homeland,” which is also a concept, not a place; we need a “myth,” which doesn’t refer to anything substantial.

No one but intellectuals appreciate these elaborate ideological sand castles. White people are not going to unite on the basis of a proposition nation.

The neocons and libertarians are also wrong on that score.

(13) We can use bombs to drive out the White liberals – Joe Snuffy of VNN Forum was dumb enough to take that idea seriously. Rachel Maddow used the Spokane bomb as fodder to polarize Whites against White Nationalists.

(14) After moving to the Pacific Northwest, White Nationalists can tutor the natives in White racial consciousness – Does the Pacific Northwest have some kind of secret sauce?

Are the people who live there unfamiliar with the Aryan Nations? Why would the same tactics which have failed elsewhere succeed there?

(15) A skeleton in the costume of a fantasy world – That’s Harold Covington’s contribution to White Nationalism.

He took an abstract model and wove a fantasy world around it. The Northwest Republic is Star Wars or Star Trek for White Nationalists. It is no more real than the United Federation of Planets.

(16) Harold plays good music – Well, I can’t win every argument. So let’s concede that point.

Personally, I like that “Rising of the Moon” song – it’s catchy, but it is about Ireland, not the Pacific Northwest, as are most of the other tunes in Harold’s repertoire, which he uses as metaphors for revolutionary struggle … something twice removed from the original source.

What do the American sub-nations really sound like? These songs well up from the roots of a people.

This one is more Northwesty:


This one is more California:


This one is more Empty Corridor:

This one is more Heartland:


This one is more Dixie:


This one is more Foundry:


This one is more South Florida:

You can listen to Skynyrd, Bruce Springsteen, and George Strait and really get the sense that they are capturing something essential about the people who live in those areas, their environment, and way of seeing the world.

They tap into something that goes way beyond grievances and abstractions – hence, their enduring popularity and resonance with millions of ordinary White people.

What is the White Nationalist equivalent of that? Jamming away with Irish metaphors about a proposition nation?

Sorry, but that doesn’t bring the house down like George Strait in Kansas City. It is not even close to a substitute.

(17) What’s YOUR solution – This suggests there is a solution. Maybe there isn’t one. White people will respond to their racial predicament in different ways.

The vast majority of White people are unwilling to uproot themselves for ideological reasons. They are even less willing to throw away their lives for an ideology. I can tell you that much.

“White Zionists,” racialists who vote with their feet, are a minority of White Nationalists. Personally, I think the people who share that mindset should move to Empty Corridor and try to imitate the Mormons or Amish.

Maybe they could have an impact on the state level in a place like Wyoming or Montana. Alternatively, they could stay put where they are and think more about what makes their corner of America distinct.

About Hunter Wallace 11895 Articles
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent

50 Comments

  1. If people would have listened back when Butler was trying to get people to go Northwest before everything got so bad, it might have worked; however, things have gotten worse and we can’t say two words without being watched or monitored. There really is not any safe way to do a migration…the feds will eventually have their hand in it. But, even with Butler, enough people did not want to try to make it work; therefore, what is going to make it different this time?

  2. Jeez, Hunter, it is so obvious that you have a deeply personal hatred of HAC and WNs in general that you have no problem accepting the statements of the SPLC or the FBI at face value if you can use them to put your enemies in a bad light and hurt them. This is probably why people believe that you would be willing to drop a dime to Morris in Monkeytown and rat out movement people if you thought that would hurt them too. That is the next logical step on the road you are on.

  3. My solution

    Stage 1) Culture of critique. One half of the metapolitical battle – undermining the dominant culture. Good examples BUGS and in a more specialized way SBPDL, Tanstaafl and Duke.

    Stage 2) Active real world White advocacy / civil rights movement. Good example Hoosier nation.

    Stage 3) The second half of the metapolitical battle – injection of alternative organizing principles into the mainstream i.e Diversity Kills instead of Diversity is Strength, Nation First, Economy Second instead of Free Trade (or NS or Theocracy or whatever). Places like MR and Counter-currents and OO fit here as do HBD sites in some respects, not all.

    Stage 4) Mass political movement based on the new organizing principles. Enough success and the other side drops their democratic mask and attacks leading to Big Fight.

    Stage 5) Re-arrange the world to reduce chances of this happening again.

    I don’t believe (4) can reach critical mass unless (3) has already done so and i don’t believe (3) can reach critical mass until (2) has done so nor (2) unless (1) has, so in that sense i believe the stages need to be sequential. However i think all four stages can be worked on at once. Political parties like BNP/A3P for example could be doing all four (although i personally think they should mostly focus on (1) and (2)).

    This site’s recent articles have been a mixture of (1) BRA and (3) Southern Racial Conservatism.

    So i think there’s scope for worthwhile activity at all levels and more importantly activity that suits individual characters as different people are suited to different tasks. I think the compound type stuff could be quite useful in the end-game, if we ever get there, as long as the people doing it limit themselves to preparing for the moment when it might be needed rather than try and skip the earlier stages and go straight to the Big Fight part before there’s a mass movement to back them up.

    So,
    – Culture of Critique Part 2 “Aryan Revenge”
    – real world White advocacy / civil rights
    – developing alternative Logos to replace the multicult
    – electoral politics (preferably revolving around 1 and 2 initially then shifting to 3 and 4)
    – individual and small-group secession in preparation for Ragnorok

    I think activism in any of those five areas is potentially useful. Different strokes for different folks.

  4. There are certainly many practical and theoretical objections to HACs plan piling up at CCs. I think HAC should be given every opportunity to answer every them, but I think the many cogent objections to his plan, especially that comment by “John Morgan,” have multiplied to a point that it doesn’t seem likely he will be able to overcome them. I’m keeping an open mind though and want to see what he says.

    The takeaway from that debate for me so far is that forming real-world physical communities that are connected to an actually already existing community, wherever they may be, is of the utmost urgency and has to be made a high priority. Kievsky and Matt Parrot are probably the models to follow here, I think.

    Wandrin, those are great ideas. Now how do we make it happen?

  5. Your criticisms of Covington, et al, are almost entirely true, but your constant harping on this topic was tiresome some time ago and is obsessional now. Also, if you think the NW is insufficiently White, WTF are you doing advocating the South? I’m a Southerner too, and I left long ago due to, ahem, demographic realities.

  6. The takeaway lesson from this article is that you got to “ignite the folk” so to speak and that abstractions, grievances, fantasies, and metaphors do not constitute a real nation or provide a solid foundation for a successful revolt against the United States.

    Even if you have that foundation, you have to win when you roll the dice, and the Confederacy was unable to accomplish that with Robert E. Lee.

    Then you have Ireland, which in spite of its independence and geographic distance from the United States, not to mention its other cultural and historical advantages, is still a place where Miss Ireland has a Nigerian boyfriend.

    The toxic degenerate culture of the modern West can touch the shores of Ireland from several thousand miles away. It reaches all the way to Australia and New Zealand.

    You can’t run away from the problem. Blowing up buildings isn’t much of a response to cultural decay. It is more a sign of frustration than anything else.

  7. I support the Northwest migration and the dream of an independent NorthWest Republic. And it is precisely because it contains the strong element of a romantic, idealized “dream” that the idea has great power – the same as the dream of a united Ireland, or the Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East – once part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, then a part of the all mighty British Empire. Well the Jew’s got their Jewish homeland – their Zionist dream became a reality and the demographics for Jews vs Arabs in the Middle East were/are a lot worse than Whites in the Pacific NorthWest.

    HW writes:

    “The U.S. military has decades of experience in fighting and beating insurgencies like the Iraq insurgency. There are now less than 100 al-Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan.”

    JR Replies:

    This is just plain silly. No serious person with a good understanding of history believes the people of Afghanistan and Iraq are a beaten people who will be forever happy, loyal subjects of the American Empire. The British Empire did a much better job of pacifying these same people and the British Empire in these areas is really history.

    Mr. Covington’s plan makes sense – in that the Pacific NorthWest is huge, extremely difficult for an occupying, colonial force to occupy well .

    The plan of a war for an independent White NorthWest Republic depends on a lot of things, many are reasonable assumptions. The Washington regime ZOG/anti White regime must continue to lose support from Whites in North America and the distractions of easy credit, cheap gasoline, football and beer (bread and circuses) must be taken away and our people have to recover our balls, our honor our courage and the spirit of rebellion.

    The Pacific Northwest has already seen some heroic acts of rebellion/defiance (Ruby Ridge) – so the sentiment is out there.

    Hunter has obviously been burned and turned off by HAC and the entire WN “movement’ (hate that word) – so he has lost the romantic Iron Dream. Mr. Covington obviously has personal character issues that make it doubtful that he and he alone will reach out and covert most of the Whites living the Pacific Northwest and throughout North America to “Come Home” and break away from Washington/Hollywood/Wall Street. But others can and must step up and reach out and inspire.

    Finally one point. Anyone who who makes a successful go at White Nationalism, implicit nationalism in any way – makes a break through anywhere be in Finland, Switzerland, a Boer Republic, a PLE – a Southern rock folkish festival some place in Alabama – these people give hope to embattled Whites everywhere in the world from Dixie to the South Side of Chicago.

    We can all use some hope and have a dream of something in the future to live and die for here and now.

  8. Exposing the mechanics of Black Run America is a negative grievance. It gets White people pissed off and alienated.

    The key is to channel that built up resentment down the path of ethnonationalism. Human beings have positive needs like a meaningful sense of identity and a sense of community. The present system isn’t satisfying those needs.

    Unfortunately, White Nationalism isn’t perceived as an adequate response to those needs either. It is dry and abstract. To be fair, the Southern nationalist project of restoring the Confederacy through the appeal of nostalgia hasn’t had that much more success.

    Maybe we are putting the cart ahead of the horse – the horse being the articulation of a stronger and more powerful sense of identity, which can connect with a mass audience, not unlike that George Strait song which articulates the idea of there being a “Heartland” where people become conscious of their own distinctiveness.

  9. (1) The U.S. military beat the Iraq insurgency. It set up camp over there and took on all comers and won.

    (2) The U.S. military beat al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. They retreated to Pakistan and other countries. Unlike Vietnam, the anti-war movement was unable to stop the Iraq War or Afghan War, and Barack Obama has even started a third war in Libya.

    (3) The Pacific Northwest, unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, is American territory. The people who live there identify with the United States – except for maybe the 10 or 20 people who are HAC’s followers in the region.

    Perhaps you are unable to appreciate how much easier it would be for the U.S. military, logistically speaking, to operate in the Pacific Northwest than Iraq or Afghanistan which are on the other side of the world.

    (4) White Nationalists aren’t Muslims or the IRA by any stretch of the imagination. Just look at Joe Snuffy for a recent example.

    (5) Martyrs are only “martyrs” when ordinary people identify with them. A few of the locals identified with the Weavers, but that was because they just wanted to be left alone, not because of their racial ideology.

    The feds aren’t stupid. They learned the appropriate lessons from Waco and Ruby Ridge and changed their tactics.

    (6) There never was an Iron Dream.

    It was always a fantasy like Captain Archer uniting the Vulcans and Andorians through the obvious superiority of modern liberalism and humanitarianism.

  10. Lew,

    “Wandrin, those are great ideas. Now how do we make it happen?”

    BUGS works for Stage (1). I spend most of my time doing that. That kind of thing doesn’t suit everyone though.

    I agree Matt Parrott is a good model for (2). However if you’re not a leader type then you need someone to have already started a group nearby.

    Sites like this are good for (1), (2) and (3) if you’re a writer.

    I agree there’s a bit of a gap for currently for people who drop through those three nets. I’d say either get involved in A3P or a regional equivalent or some mainstream advocacy group like NumbersUSA to gain experience at politicking and useful skills connected to that or the Kievsky solo secession / NW migration small-group secession to develop practical skills that could be useful later on.

    My niche is (1) so i’m set. I personally see that as the foundation that will lead to (2) and more groups for people to join.

  11. “Maybe we are putting the cart ahead of the horse – the horse being the articulation of a stronger and more powerful sense of identity, which can connect with a mass audience”

    That’s the point of the culture of critque part 2. The multicult is a religion and it created a set of taboos one of which is a taboo against any kind of positive White identity. These taboos are maintained by a priesthood (school, media, politicians). By constantly attacking the multicult priesthood over their double standards you weaken them and by extension their ability to maintain those taboos.

    If you pick any random forum to hang out in, real world or virtual, and simply attack the multicult’s double standards whenever they come up and fight off any kommisars who try and counter attack and without at any point ever openly promoting any kind of alternative, then after a month or so the regulars at that forum will become vocally more ethno-centric. The multicult suppresses people’s natural instincts. They don’t suddenly turn into revolutionaries or anything but they become amenable to what i call stage (2) i.e a white civil rights levels of White identity.

  12. “The U.S. military beat the Iraq insurgency. It set up camp over there and took on all comers and won.”

    If you consider losing to 20% of the population (Sunnis) before buying them off and agreeing to leave by December 31, 2011 with no bases and no preferred oil contracts, at the expense of trillions of dollars “winning”. Of course it was the Shia who forced the humiliating (to ZOG) exit conditions.

  13. Some other interesting links:

    Biggest losers are New Orleans and Detroit:

    THE CENSUS’ FASTEST-GROWING CITIES OF THE DECADE

    http://www.newgeography.com/content/002186-the-census%E2%80%99-fastest-growing-cities-of-the-decade

    As has been repeatedly noted on this website, Empty Corridor states like North Dakota and Wyoming are experiencing a small boom because of their mineral wealth:

    Wyoming’s Boom Poses Challenges For Obama

    http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www10.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/us/politics/17wyoming.html?_r=5

    Georgia followed in the footsteps of Arizona last week:

    Immigrants Are Subject of Tough Bill in Georgia

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/us/16immigration.html?ref=us

    A hate article against John Tanton:

    The Anti-Immigration Crusader

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/us/17immig.html?_r=1

  14. If this project is supposed to extend past the northern border, it’s worth noting Ecotopia’s northern city of Vancouver has just crossed the 51% non-White population line.

    I can’t remotely imagine the Canadian part of the Northwest going in a WN direction. Lots of Canadians go to Seattle for fun and recreation and vice versa. The Canadian immigrant population is overwhelmingly Asian and easy to along with if one is not bothered by their introversion and money-focused mindset. The East Indians in the lower mainland of British Columbia overwhelmingly kill one another when they do violence, so no one really cares. They even police their own by making them disappear if they cause too much public trouble.

    If anything were to be done in Canada, or I suspect anywhere, it would be by re-affirming the cultural and political traditions of Canada: Red Toryism, protectionism, local yet controlled free markets, local wealth creation, European heritage, economic benefits, and more focus on the monarchy. It would be through formal channels and be essentially noble in character, with appeal to many people. In Canada it’s more common for non-White recent immigrants to be into our support of the Queen and the monarchy than it is for White Canadians, so there is potential from different directions.

    One would always have to have a plausibly better plan for economic well-being and an enjoyable social network which would be able in theory to include non-Whites even if the focus is for Europeans. It’s better to be more on the implicit side of Whiteness or better yet a focus on European heritage in values, ethnicity, and culture and less on White racialist obsessions for their own sake of, say, breeding paler skin.

    I don’t see the Pacific Northwest as ever going in the direction of a deliberately White ethnostate, although I could see a pro-European immigration policy and natal policy in the relatively short run. This would create a similar enough result in the long-run. If pro-White people weren’t generally so unable to be diplomatic and personable and reach out to others this would be probably quite easy to move forward. Believe it or not, many Asians wouldn’t even resists a gradual yet constant change towards keeping it European heritage. They moved to North America for a reason!

    I can sit down with anyone of any race and make my case. No one bothers me for it. The notion that you can’t do anything for your people is more the fault of how these things are approached and the often insane underlying intentions than the thing itself.
    Or it’s the fault of White people just not caring enough no matter what.

    But at least here in Ecotopia, you really have to stand on the principle of not displacing your own people because things are so damn chill.

  15. Minor correction: I meant to say ‘If anything were to be done in Canada, or I suspect anywhere, it would be by re-affirming the cultural and political traditions [of the region].’

    I didn’t mean everyone should copy Canada’s Anglo-Saxon traditional political and economic approaches (although they might work just fine for any White area for all I know).

  16. i don’t understand why HAC NEEDS to be smeared, unless there is competition for white migrants from states that are beyond recovery.

  17. “Miss Ireland has a Nigerian boyfriend.”

    What a kick in the balls this news is – her father did a horrible job raising her, obviously. Most White women I know have no attraction toward Africans. The reason being: their families, with a special emphasis on their fathers, made it clear that any personal relationships with Africans is forbidden. The common thread seems to be a strong, alpha-male, father figure.

    I can only come to the conclusion that a girl, whom has a weak – feminized -father figure, will have an increased probability of defiling herself as Ms. Ireland has. Especially considering that African culture is propped-up as the dominant culture, giving impressionable young females the illusion of male African dominance – you know, the same Africans whose contribution to the advancement of human thought, science and philosophy adds-up to nil.

  18. I find it funny New Orleans is the biggest loser along with Detriot because I often tell people New Orleans has become Detriot South. The author of that article mostly blames Katrina for this, but that’s 100% PC bullshit. White people are heading for the hills here because it offers the worst of all possible worlds, a poor economy, a huge population of the dysfunctional and dangerous Blacks, along with a huge influx of illegal Mexicans in recent years. What’s happening in Detroit and Nola also happened after the French left Haiti. It’s the same pattern. Determing where a racially conscious White man should move his family is not an idle intellectual exercise for me. I’m really trying to figure out where to go.

  19. >>>I’m really trying to figure out where to go.<<<

    I'm well traveled within the U.S. and have lived in the PNW for the last few decades; Boise, Spokane, Seattle, Portland, and finally Springfield, OR. The inland portions are mostly White and conservative. The west coast, particularly the major urban centers, are liberal with a noticeable Asian populating giving them an ambience of cosmopolitanism.

    We've got a lot of wide open space out here, partially because the Bureau of Land Management owns so much of it. Because its public land, and not privately held, it has a sense of being "ours".

    Committed WN's are few and far between, but we are beginning to network to maximize our sense of community. HACs efforts have been, and continue to be helpful to many of us, in galvanizing this effort.

    I don't like saying its the "the only way", but I have to admit it's done more good for us than anything else I could name offhand.

    Look me up if you decide to make a scouting trip, Lew.

  20. The major objection to the Pacific Northwest is the I-5 corridor where the millions of SWPLs live along the Pacific Coast. In so many words, Ecotopia is the problem.

    There is nothing objectionable about the region east of the Cascade Mountains. It is more White, more conservative, not as heavily populated. That place is Empty Quarter.

    Idaho is pure Empty Quarter. This is reflected in the culture and political demography of the state.

  21. Those who are fans of Covington’s fiction ought to check out the Callenbach book. It sold over a hundred thousand copies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia

    The book is set in 1999 (25 years in the future, as seen from 1974) and consists of the diary entries and reports of William Weston, a mainstream media reporter who is the first American proper to investigate Ecotopia, a newly formed country that broke from the USA in 1980. Prior to Weston’s investigative reporting, most Americans had not been allowed to enter the new country, which is depicted as being on continual guard against revanchism. The new nation of Ecotopia consists of Northern California, Oregon and Washington; it is hinted that Southern California is a lost cause. The book is presented as a combination of narrative from Weston’s diary and dispatches that he transmits to his publication, the mythical Times-Post.

    Together with Weston (who at the beginning is curious about, but not particularly sympathetic to the Ecotopians), the reader learns about the Ecotopian transportation system and the preferred lifestyle that includes celebrating gender roles, official encouragement of maintaining racial segregation, discouraging monogamy, promoting sexual freedom. A distain for television is manifested by promoting popular communal combat “sport” events designed to end in bloodshed and even death. liberal cannabis use, as well as about energy production, building construction, a defense strategy focused both on developing a highly advanced arms industry while also maintaining hidden WMD within major US population centers. Education reform, and a holistic approach to medical care that may include a primary care giver performing oral sex on her patient as part of the treatment.

  22. You seem to have become very pessimistic over the last several months.

    So many of your points ring true in the body of most of your works; but what seems to be lacking is your fundamental sense of ‘courage’ and a certain ‘vision’ which have always made WN’sts stand apart. Your article has many valid points but, as usual, you lack that certain faith, and knowledge about this era – what you see, in hindsight, does not service the Sacrifice, hard work, and continuing realization of the ‘territorial imperative’.

    Sometimes, HW, you are snide, and far removed from aspiring White resistance – you want ‘something which works’, as is your mantra, but never ‘truly’ give respect to those who put down a plan (like D. Butler), or the organizational skills and productivity of the Bruder Schweigen who, by the way, actually suffered and bled for their vision of the future, some having passed away in dark and angry places. You have never said anything that I have ever read, in which you have attacked these men, or their vision – but you always seem to offer something else, without the amount of real revolutionary mind-set in which to bring ‘your’ vision to the fore.

    Be that as it may:

    HW says:

    (6) The Pacific Northwest has been sanctified by the blood of martyrs – Every single one of these episodes discredits Harold’s plan of resorting to violence.

    – The White population of the Pacific Northwest didn’t shed any tears over The Order.

    WT replies:

    How would you know this? You were barely born, and those in the specific and general locations of that area, in that time period, put these men up, aided them and, I am sure, shed many tears for them.

    – The Order was sold out by the likes of Glenn Miller.

    WT replies:

    True.

    – The Order members have bitterly complained about being forgotten by the White Nationalist movement after they went to prison.

    WT replies:

    Very True, as this anger and resentment seems to come from the fact that many ‘so-called’ white nationalists/white advocates/realists lacked that very courage to ‘back-up’ this above effort – mainly, in my mind, because there were many intelligent and ego-driven ‘wannabees’ who, of course, had their meritorious opposing positions, their ‘other answers’ which, of course, ‘would have worked’, if only implemented.

    Remember, however, HW, the White Nationalist ‘movement’ consists of individuals who, for the most part, even after all these years, still write, send funds, and correspond with those men mentioned above, IN SPITE of those virtual, or public leaders who, in the main, failed to support these efforts (but were content to sit in Arkansas, or Georgia, or Alabama, or wherever and ‘ride the storm out), and have for many years now, offered nothing but a pale imitation of what DB and others really strove for.

    Those kinsmen who really ‘are’ WN’sts have not forgotten these sacrifices – the rest, they are simply here taking up space.

    – The FBI adapted and changed its tactics following Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    And what change is this?

    – Richard Butler was unable to form a successful White Nationalist colony in the region.

    WT replies:

    In 1979-1985 there were approx. 115 families who moved either directly or indirectly because of this ‘call’, and who remained in this area. You may make a poooha over this number – but the fact remains that this ‘colony’ was a viable, functioning reality – and only the cowardice and laziness of others, made the above sacrifices count for little of this present generation.

    – Groups like the Montana Freemen were snuffed out by the FBI and ATF.

    Interestingly, you would group these individuals with proper and experienced WN’sts, but this above group, for the most part, were simple ‘freedom loving patriots’, and lacked a succinct ‘world-view’, which would encompass racialism (stated), and a true revolutionary intent (unlike the RJM and the Order).

    You seem to ‘lump’ any ‘activist/extremist’ as a white nationalist – yet you , yourself, lack any real credibility in this area (although a better word-smith would be hard to find) – it is a shame, in passing, that you seem to have taken some of this ‘anti-sentiment’ from individuals are certainly posers, and not true WN’sts, such as those you have paired yourself in these frivolous, petty, and ignoble parties who, one and all, do NOT speak for White Nationalism. Moreover, there are members of RJM’s attempts in the northwest – I have yet to see you, or any of these imposters, learn from the ‘horses mouth’, so to speak – until you have listened and learned from these individuals, be conscious of what you may, unintentionally, be diminishing.

    Don’t let the BS get you down, HW.

  23. I just noticed the above work: https://www.createspace.com/3340236

    I possess both volumes, and should note that the author was directly involved in RJM’s Bruder. I do not know how to get in touch with this individual, or I would let you know, HW.

    In my humble opinion, this is a true WN’st.

    As well, I have been told, over the years, by acquaintances who know him, that this individual actually used the term ‘white nationalist’ for the FIRST time in the early eighties while being interviewed (print/video); I am not positive in this, but believe simply because it was this man and his fellows who, at the time, created so much of our modern ‘word usage’ in this struggle.

    Just a little food for thought.

  24. William,

    What you are zeroing in on here is the weakness of ideology alone to unite White people and move them into action.

    Look at it this way:

    (1) There are plenty of people who agree with Harold Covington’s ideas, perhaps a majority of his listening audience, who think a Northwest Republic is a great idea in the abstract sense, but that doesn’t mean they are going to uproot themselves, actually move there, and make anything in the way of a real sacrifice to advance that effort.

    (2) Glenn Miller was a White Nationalist, but that didn’t stop him from testifying as a state witness in the Fort Smith Trial in exchange for a reduced sentence.

    (3) There must be thousands of White Nationalists now. The movement has grown by leaps and bounds since the internet came along.

    How many of those people correspond with The Order members who in prison? Now I am sure their friends and family still do, but what can be said of the total strangers who just happen to share their ideology? Do they really appreciate the sacrifice they made?

    (4) How many White people in the Pacific Northwest recognized and appreciated the sacrifice The Order made for their posterity?

    (5) Why did so many of those people in the states you mentioned choose to sit out while the struggle ws going on?

    (6) The Aryan Nations was a Christian Identity group. Didn’t a shared religion encourage a more family oriented settlement pattern while Richard Butler was alive?

    The point I am getting at here, which this whole discussion of HAC was just an excuse to raise, is that what we actually have is a pretty thin sense of identity to offer people. It is not as strong as, say, the ethnoreligious mix that powers al-Qaeda, the old IRA, traditional Christianity, or even historical Confederate Army.

    These groups were more homogeneous and were stronger because of it. Does that make any sense to you?

  25. To put it another way, the real source of Adolf Hitler’s strength was his capture of the German nation, not the abstract ideas of National Socialism, which as an ideology alone amounted to nothing more than a topic for a debating society.

  26. Hunter:
    I’m not sure I understand the meaning of your references to Ecotopia, but I get the feeling you are more favorably disposed to the eastern portion of the PNW than the western portion. I further sense that your sentiments in this matter are analogous to your political sympathies regarding “right” and “left”. It’s as if you see the future of racialism as being contingent on the “progress”, (excuse the oxymoron), of “conservatism”.

    As I mentioned previously, I have lived for substantial portions of my life on both sides of the Cascades. While my more recent tenure has been on the west side, most of my relatives remain on the eastern side, and I spend substantial periods of time visiting them. It’s always a bit like time travel. It takes several years for the social trends established in west to permeate into the east.

    If, as I do, you see expressions of explicit White racial awareness as a growing social trend resulting from the ever more obvious failures of the diversity experiment, I think you will agree that our salvation will dawn in the West.

    For those of Northern orientation, that will mean from the Left.

  27. I do not argue or, in abstract, take issue with your criticisms.

    HW says:

    (3) There must be thousands of White Nationalists now. The movement has grown by leaps and bounds since the internet came along.

    How many of those people correspond with The Order members who in prison? Now I am sure their friends and family still do, but what can be said of the total strangers who just happen to share their ideology? Do they really appreciate the sacrifice they made?

    Yes, understood; and here is where you are zeroing in on my point.

    Leadership, as in the ‘past wn leadership’ failed, and failed miserably, to ‘extend’ the heroism of these men and their ideas – how many in the NW help? I am not sure; but probably not enough. The Folk ‘follow’ what is ‘in their face’, but the ‘traditional’ leaders, some of whom have, in the absence of RJM’s Bruder, have literally ‘taken over’ the conversation and ‘presentation’ of WN’sm – this is what I sense you lacking – a true world-view (that created by those who inspired and attempted it).

    Remember, it is only through organs of communication, and the written media, that information gets out; don’t get me wrong, but I am not talking about you – but those who could, but did not.

    (4) How many White people in the Pacific Northwest recognized and appreciated the sacrifice The Order made for their posterity?

    Not enough, truly. The NW seems to be under lock and key. Many I know love it up there, but miss the truly open and accepted racialism of the ‘occupied’ states!

    (5) Why did so many of those people in the states you mentioned choose to sit out while the struggle ws going on?

    Not sure. Would you elaborate?

  28. Jimmy,

    If you believe the people who support giving driver’s licenses and in-state tuition to illegal aliens are more favorably disposed to White identity politics, then I respectfully disagree.

    Does racial diversity increase the salience of racial identity? In some cases, yes. Arizona is a clear example of that. In other cases, no. Hawaii is a good counterexample.

    It can go either way.

  29. Jimmy Marr: Look me up if you decide to make a scouting trip, Lew.

    Thanks very much, Jimmy. I appreciate that and might take you up on it some day. For various reasons, I have been thinking about the PNW for a long time anyway. Many of my friends, family and colleagues have either already moved to escape diversity or plan to do so soon. The main consideration for me in making a decision on where to move will be economic opportunity. And I don’t even have to check to know there is zero demand for what I do outside of Seattle, or maybe Portland. And there is no way in hell am I moving to Portland. I love Seattle as a city, but from a political standpoint it’s the belly of the beast. This is what makes migration difficult.

  30. The only serious secessionist movement in North America is in Quebec, which was 89.7% white at the 2006 census. A sovereign Quebec, if it came to be, could possibly be the last white-majority nation in the western hemisphere. So there’s your white ethnostate right there, though I doubt that living in a French-speaking, left-liberal nation would appeal to many white nationalists.

    But the separation of Quebec would get the secessionist ball rolling in the rest of the continent. The Atlantic provinces would be physically separated from the rest of Canada, and would probably decide to form a 90+% white nation of their own. Western Canada might then split from Ontario, creating two more independent states, both about 75% white.

    The secession fever would then likely spread to Puerto Rico and the other detritus of American Empire (US Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa and the Northern Mariana Islands), which would rid America of more than 4 million minority US citizens. Minority-majority Hawaii might then decide to become the first state to secede from the union since 1861 and reassert their lost sovereignty.

    Geographically isolated Alaska could follow Hawaii’s lead and declare independence, or, ideally, they could join an already independent Western Canada. If Alaska joins Western Canada then I believe that a serious secessionist movement would take root in the northwest, aiming to leave the US and join Western Canada+Alaska. And rather than the micro-NW envisioned by Covington, why not a macro-NW encompassing the entire northwestern quarter of the North American continent, including 11 states (AK WA OR ID MT WY ND SD NE MN IA), 4 provinces and 3 territories?

    This independent state in the northwest quarter (NWQ) would not be a white ethnostate per se, but it would be about 80% white. It would be about the same size as the US and Canada are today, about 4 million square miles, and contain about 42 million people. The politics of the NWQ are solidly conservative outside of the major metropolitan areas of Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis-St Paul. The per capita resource base in the NWQ is as great as anywhere on earth, especially oil, gas and minerals. The major minority groups in the NWQ are Asians and aboriginals, not blacks and Hispanics, and the number of Jews and Muslims here are insignificant.

    I believe that an independent NWQ is a realistic possibility, IF Quebec separation leads to an independent Western Canada, which then annexes Alaska and eventually the rest of the northwest. It’s a big if, but I believe that this is a plausible scenario, unlike Covington’s fantasy of violent revolution.

  31. HW: The point I am getting at here, which this whole discussion of HAC was just an excuse to raise, is that what we actually have is a pretty thin sense of identity to offer people. It is not as strong as, say, the ethnoreligious mix that powers al-Qaeda, the old IRA, traditional Christianity, or even historical Confederate Army.

    This makes sense to me, although it terms of solving this problem it occurred to me that there might for once finally be some upside to White Americans’ almost universal deracination. Peoples’ traditional identities have been mostly desolved so they might actually be open embracing a new form of identify to fill this vacuum.

  32. Hunter,

    I get your point, and agree; It could go either way. Mapping racialism onto the traditional Left/Right spectrum is not especially instructive, and I don’t generally see things in that light. I got carried away with my own geographic analogy when I realized West is to the Left of East.

    Lew,

    If your situation requires you to live in the Belly of a Beast, I think Seattle is as good a beast as you will find. If I could relive my life I would probably reverse the decision I made to leave Bellevue for Portland in 1988. As it is, both my kids have successful careers in the Seattle area, and my wife and I, as retirees, are now priced out of the housing market there.

    On the subject of ethno-religious identity, I find this interview with Miguel Serrano quite interesting: http://allfatherwotan.org/serranointerview.html

  33. It seems that we the posterity of the founders are going to go through a civilizational inflection point in racial attitueds. Likely of the same magnitude of the political change Russians went through around 1991.
    Russia transitioned from state socialism to cowboy capitalism in three years.
    We are probably approaching a similarl magnitutde political/racial earthquake.
    Our problem is our people are currently in a “consensus trance” as Bob Whitaker would say.
    White nationalist are not day dreaming when we believe in “The Great Awakening”.
    The pentagon has had fears of internal civil war since at least the early 90’s when they started Military Operations in Urban Terrain (MOUT) training exercises.
    Also see pgs 31-32 of the SSI paper, “Known Unknowns”, http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB890.pdf which was published almost a year before the 9/12 march on Washington. I’m 68 and have never seen white Americans in a demonstration even approaching the size of the 9/12 march.
    In “Known Unknowns” Lt. Col. Freier basically said that in the event of civil war the Army should sit it out in it’s barracks. That was the wise choice the Red Army made in 1991.
    If a liberal state like Wisconsin can vote out public unions, change is a coming.
    We all are uncertain how to meet it. But when it comes we should be ready to take advantage and establish all white communities that are politically defined as all white.
    Other wise we will end up like the ancient Aryans of India, miscegenated out of existence.
    I feel sure in the wake of “The Great Awakening” no federal or state authority is going to have the political “consensus trance” available to put down local racial independence movements.
    In the meantime I’m using Bob Whitakers Mantra tactics and we are seeing success.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Truthisahatecrime#p/a/u/2/nfB_F936bU8

  34. Yankee Bob says: “i don’t understand why HAC NEEDS to be smeared….”

    HAC doesn’t need to be “smeared”: telling the truth about him will suffice!
    Click on my name and read my blog.

  35. I don’t see any smears here.

    Didn’t he want a debate? Wasn’t that his idea? In a debate, you state your case and the other guy responds, and this goes on until you arrive at some type of consensus.

    My position is that I think the Interior West is a more sensible destination for White Zionists: Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, North Dakota.

    30,000+ White Nationalists moving to Wyoming or Montana would have a much bigger impact there. Some people are going to move anyway to escape diversity. They should go to the place where the numbers work in their favor.

  36. According to the New York Times article, Wyoming is the biggest energy prize in the United States. In terms of energy consumption, it is more valuable to our Happy Motoring Society than Saudi Arabia or Canada.

  37. Lew: I think you are on to something.
    Robert Prechter, in the 2002 book “Conquer the Crash” predicted a cilizational wide depression driven by a world wide lowering of confidence and social mood.
    He also predicted vastly reduced housing prices, greatly increased social strife around the world, the bankruptcy of major house hold name American corporations, bank failures, government loans to banks to provide credit, (which cash he said the banks were likely to sit on instead of lending out).
    All of these things have happened.
    Another thing Prechter said was that in this world wide negative mood swing people would find it psychologically necessary to belong to, cling to, more narrowly defined social groupings and simultaneously find more reason to be in conflict with other out groups.
    Please check out this best you tube rendition of Whitakers Mantra.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfB_F936bU8

    Racial solidarity can be the new social group. Like the “we’re all Nicole now” mood of whites after the O.J. acquittal.
    Go to whiterabbitradio.net and whitakeronline.org to get the political agitation training.

  38. Yankee Bob says: “i don’t understand why HAC NEEDS to be smeared….”

    Well, Bob, here is an excerpt from the preface to a debate which was demanding “good manners” from all respondents.

    “The few attempts which have been made to resist racial extinction by groups and personalities of an openly National Socialist or racialist nature have been led by men who were stupid, incompetent, dishonest, or some combination of all three…There is only one strategy remaining…”

    I have to hand it to HAC, he made no ad hominem attacks on any individual nationalists. He painted all of us, excluding himself and a few dead guys, as stupid, incompetent crooks with one stroke of a megalomaniacal brush.

    In my opinion, he should devote himself to writing fiction and get a PR man to handle his public relations.

  39. Hunter Wallace says: “To put it another way, the real source of Adolf Hitler’s strength was his capture of the German nation, not the abstract ideas of National Socialism, which as an ideology alone amounted to nothing more than a topic for a debating society.”

    This is a really obtuse assessment of why National-Socialism attained power in Germany. People voted for the NSDAP because of the ideas. Hitler explains very clearly in Mein Kampf that the innovation and key to success for the NSDAP was to be a nationalist party that offered enough in the way of social welfare that the workers, who generally were patriotic, would not be forced to support the Communists and Social-Democrats.

  40. It worked there because Hitler was a German nationalist who connected with a mass constituency of millions of other German nationalists who were able to identify with him (and sacrifice for his regime) through their shared blood, culture, and heritage.

    That happens to be why National Socialism has failed everywhere else it has been tried. This is especially true of the United States.

  41. There are some problems with Covington’s conception that you don’t get simply by criticizing what was said on that C-C thread.

    One criticism is that Covington dismisses all efforts short of his imaginary breakaway republic. Covington says, don’t pass out leaflets, because that will give the police an opportunity to put your name on a list! He also says that nobody should try to form White communities because ZOG will not allow them to exist. Covington thus seems to remove all rungs from the ladder that might lead up to his imaginary state.

    It seems to me that Covington’s violent secessionist propaganda is also going to tend to make life more difficult for people that try to have any kind of White community, because they may very well be seen through the lens of Covington’s fantasy. Any racialist that settles in the Northwest especially is likely to be seen as “one of those.” I thought April Gaede showed a healthy instinct when she distanced herself from Covington (albeit temporarily) after seeing Covington’s promotional video that used footage of IRA violence. Making yourself look scary and dangerous is not a very good idea when the menace that you present is almost entirely bluff and, even if it were real, would be inconsequential so far as the government is concerned.

    Assuming that we are in a system that is in decline, White people everywhere are gradually going to become more open to radical ideas. Why then should the vanguard of that renascent racial consciousness segregate itself into an obscure corner of the country? It seems like a big favor for the enemies of Whiteness.

  42. “key to success for the NSDAP was to be a nationalist party that offered enough in the way of social welfare that the workers, who generally were patriotic, would not be forced to support the Communists and Social-Democrats.”

    And looking at it from the other direction it shows you why the anti-white fifth column inside the western Conservative parties do everything they possibly can to push Reagan Democrat type voters away.

  43. LEW: Americans are more than open to a new tribal identity, they are positively desperate for one. How much more tribal can you get than nose rings, ear disks, and tatoo-covered arms? Or Raiders jerseys and DKNY t-shirts? The problem it that the Jew’s media has provided a vast array of fake, unhealthy, ready to wear alternative identities, all the while disparaging any authentic White culture. We have an absolutely glorious history and tradition, ready to use, should any heavy metal or punk fan ever tire of having to change their minds as often as they change their hairstyle. Rembrandt is ours, Washington is ours, Johnny Cash is ours, Neil Armstrong is ours. Trotsky is theirs, Warhol is theirs, Rodney King is theirs, Betty Friedan is theirs.

  44. Hadding,

    You make some reasonable points, but what about considering a bigger picture. The controversy that HAC has created has caused a generalized increase of awareness within the WN community. For example, I wouldn’t know anything about you if it were not for HAC. You would not know anything about me, if it were not for HAC.

    Regardless of what any of us think about HAC, we probably think more of and about each other as a result of his activities. In my opinion, this is a good thing.

    I’m very happy with all the acquaintances I have made, and new information I have discovered as a result of participating in this protracted discussion. It’s invaluable to me, and if I were to gain a few new neighbors, I’d be even happier.

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