Sven Longshanks and Billy Roper have a new podcast about my WN 1.0 article.
They’ve been involved in the White Nationalist movement for a long time and have followed the arc of the Alt-Right from 2015 to 2018. Both have some thoughts on this subject in light of past experience. We all agree that the Alt-Right’s lack of coherence has finally caught up with it.
What is the Alt-Right? No one really has a definitive answer. The movement has been called “ill-defined” and a “loose coalition” of groups with disparate tendencies. The closest thing we have to a definitive take on the Alt-Right was the MILO and Allum Bokhari article at Breitbart. There doesn’t appear to be a single book written about the subject by one of its own advocates. Basically, the Alt-Right was just a space on the internet where various people interacted with similar attitudes.
The movement rode the Trump wave to mainstream notoriety in the 2016 election cycle. It was so vague that people as different as Richard Spencer and Mike Cernovich identified with it. In hindsight, this was a strength on the way up and a weakness on the way down. When it became clear that White identity politics wasn’t going to be normalized under the Trump administration, the first wave of enthusiasts who came to be known as the Alt-Lite jumped off the Alt-Right bandwagon.
For a movement that is fundamentally supposed to be about identity, the Alt-Right never really figured out its own identity. Is it just the Donald Trump fan club? No. Is it mainstream conservatism or cultural libertarianism? No. Is it just a euphemism for White Nationalism? No. Is it National Socialism? No. Is it identitarianism? Arguably, but it aspired to be something broader. At some point, the Alt-Right became so fixated on “optics” that whatever remaining solidarity it had disintegrated.
In between the bantz and the memes, I don’t think anyone could ever really say what it was because it had evolved into a kind of post-literate popular culture. There were a few stabs made in this direction. In searching for an answer though, I think many people came to believe that the Alt-Right was fundamentally a brand or a style. The core of the matter was “optics” because the Alt-Right has different “optics” than White Nationalism. There were people like TWP who were ruining the optics.
The Optics Question collided with the Nationalism Question. A race or a nation is an extended family. It isn’t a brand or an optic. By definition, there are people who are “bad optics” who are part of your nation. This isn’t a problem for the völkisch nationalists who are fundamentally motivated by identification with and sympathy for their own people. It became a major problem though for people who are motivated by “optics” who feel no sense of solidarity with other people based on their appearance.
The reason optics spiraling proved to be so devastating to the Alt-Right is because appearances are a highly divisive subject that correlate with class. There are any number of styles which appeal to different sub-cultures within a nation. Morality and shared interest are traditionally the glue that unites a people or a movement but the nihilists in the Alt-Right are visual people who aren’t interested in morality. The movement lacked a well-defined and differentiated source of solidarity.
Some food for thought:
– The Alt-Right needs to focus on more core intellectual work beyond just analyzing the news of the day.
– The Alt-Right needs to create cadres imbued with the ideology.
– The Alt-Right needs to focus much more on morality and far less on aesthetics.
– The Alt-Right needs a temporary ban on optics discussions until we can figure out what the hell is going on and why this faggy shit has overwhelmed everything we are doing.
– The Alt-Right needs to step back from grandiose projects like Taking Back America via the power of flag waving to appeal to normies who aren’t going to give a shit anyway.
– The Alt-Right needs to reflect on recruiting people through bantz, humor, having fun, their seriousness and dedication to the cause and hitching its wagon to any politician.
“Morality and shared interest are traditionally the glue that unites a people or a movement but the nihilists in the Alt-Right are visual people who aren’t interested in morality. ”
So, HW, are you going to ban the Alt-Right Pagans (we all know who they are) from this forum, or are you merely going to editorialize ad nauseum, until the FEDGOV comes to shut YOU down, as they have shut sown Anglin, Cantwell, etc.?
It is the nature of the American atomistic Protestant mentality, that is at fault here- but it’s more than that. We have been USED by the ‘European-style socialists’ for DECADES precisely because they have a group ethos cohesion strategy and we don’t! And the rot goes so deep, most don’t even know that they HAVE to:
1) Repudiate all forms of non-Christian belief systems, and adulation of non-Christian speakers – which would include Hitler, Pierce, Duke, just for starters. Because it is merely ‘goyische Juden’ intellectual baloney, and nothing more. You CANNOT be ‘neutral’ in the realm of religion/Faith. YOU MUST CHOOSE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve.
2) Submit to a hierarchical, credal form of Christianity, that sees itself as the supercession of the [supposed] ‘Jews’ – who ‘are no valid people’, precisely to ostracize and marginalize the (cough, hack) ‘elder brethren’ from any and all White lands. In addition, recognition of the subversive nature of the satanic cults out there (Talmudism being the KEY cult) – and this recognition/liturgical repudiation needs to be clear, public, and unambiguous- starting with Papal Rome, and/or her schismatic protestant whoring daughters.
3) The Establishment of a national religion in any white Ethnostate, tied to a racial cultus (White, Christian Englishmen, I believe the Founding Fathers saw it….) that will either re-write, or overthrow the fallacious Constitution – as it currently is interpreted by the traitorous courts, judges, and Talmudic law class, is the inevitable FIRST/Last step toward any ‘FInal Solution.’
Or are we just going to watch and hope for MAGA to happen by 2020?
Why would you want to ban someone who prays to the Supreme Being? Unlearn what you have learned about so called “pagan” it’s a Christian insult to those of ancient Aryan understanding. You have been warned John.
I’m a Christian, and this is foolish. It smacks of Jewish D&C.
I see far too many Pagans and Fedoras countersignal Christianity, and I usually say that I never see the reverse (Christians attacking Pagans), but this time, I do, for no good reason!
We should NOT attack White Pagans–this is absolute stupidity from a strategic perspective.
ALSO, Adolf Hitler and David Duke were/are BOTH CHRISTIAN!
Hitler said that “No one who was not Christian would be tolerated,” and that theirs was a “Christian movement.”
Sure, Pierce wasn’t Christian, but this divisive Religious shilling needs to stop. NOW
The symbiotic Alt-Right is like an angrier, younger version of the Tea Party. There is no definitive platform or stated goals or ideas. The main cohesive element in the Alt-Right seems to be a recognition that the country is in a critical stage of crisis, which is not something that the Tea Partiers seemed to fully grasp.
The Left is also a fractured and fragmented collective, I would argue, far more than the Right. Once they’ve succeeded in their shared, ambiguous aim of removing the White Man from power, they will still have eachother to contend with. Then it will boil down to a matter of, “who’s going to throw me my crumbs?” With their traditional benefactor, the White man, no longer possessing the wealth and power to satisfy their
demands, who will they attempt to extort then? The Asian business owners? Good luck with that! Will the Hispanics have the same degree of compassion for, and sense of obligation to, the Negroes that White people have had? Negroes, who have difficulty with English, are definitely going to struggle with mastering Spanish. I have been watching with interest the “Black Flight” from the Brown Tidal Wave. What was once limited to Los Angeles and Oakland, has begun to manifest itself in cities across the country. Silly Homosexuals, Militant Feminists and Goofy Guys wearing Anarchy T-Shirts with arms that are the same diameter from shoulder to wrist, will quickly find themselves without any allies among the minorities. It’s up to us to remember who these people are when they come to us seeking refuge. I sincerely believe, as others have pointed out, that the coming circumstances will forge a bond of near solidarity out of necessity.
Fr. John reminds me of a fierce debate that arose after a pastor raised a Christian Flag above the U. S. Flag outside of his church. I truly believe that the people of the Confederacy would not have taken issue with this. I think that, even with Judah Benjamin occupying the place that he did, the Confederate government would have acknowledged that they were “A Nation Under God.”
the alt-right needs to be shown that democracy is dependent on how well the majority can force the politicians to do their will…and that depends a lot on governmental structure…small, homogeneous districts do better at forcing the politicians to do what the majority wants…this means parliamentarian governmental structures, as opposed to federalist structures…these are fundamental concepts of politics that the people of every other western nation except america more or less understand already.
read dr holton’s book Unruly Americans.
The alt-right was never a thing and only weak opportunists tried to turn it into a brand. The alt-right is basically everything but the mainstream narrative. The different elements are too dissimilar to ever truly be united. I don’t think this is a problem and I think it could easily become an advantage.
We should remain independent “cells” working with our local communities. If we try to rally around 1 banner or under 1 leader we risk being infiltrated and compromised. We should all stick to our own ideology while learning about and respecting others. I think the alt-right should be seen as a University, a place to learn, discuss and share ideas. Then take this education and apply it to the unique situation of your family, community and nation.
Yes. Different groups advancing the cause in their own way, and not sniping at each other to hide their frustration at, hopefully temporary, setbacks.
Stick to Southern Nationalism
Stick to White Nationalism, why cause a split between people in the North and South? I live in northern Wisconsin and feel little affinity to Southern Nationalism, you’re just dividing us more.
The only thing standing between our long term survival, or complete extinction, is those that think like us who are trying to get our message out to the mainstream.
All we have to do is appear united, tell the truth and present as a sensible alternative to left wing madness. The Left are now panicking as we reach more people.
Pretty much everyone wants us gone, so we really do need to at least support eachother against these external long term threats. Nobody else will.
I heard this saying once from-of all things, a politician-that united we will stand, but divided we will fall. In our case, a truer line has never been uttered.
Thank you for sharing the link to yesterday’s show, Brad. I’m honored that you listened, and pleased that we agree on the importance of morality and adherence to standards, rather than mere optics. Your diagnosis of the Alt Right is instructive. -Billy
Most pro-Whites make the fundamental mistake of thinking we’re in a war of ideas with the anti-Whites seeking to destroy our race. We’re actually in a war of words, memes. Outside of Bob Whitaker’s BUGsters very few pro-Whites seem to understand that.
>Outside of Bob Whitaker’s BUGsters very few pro-Whites seem to understand that.
Most want to create an ideology when they become redpilled, one that will solve the problems they see with the current society. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but as the red-pilled don’t have the same experiences, their solutions will vary, and then the unavoidable infighting starts.
Since there is nothing we can do to stop this, it’s better to concentrate on how to make the sum of the redpilled to pull in the direction of the 14 words, much the same way the sum of all forces end up moving an object in one direction in Newtonian physics.
This is happening now, where various sides cancel each other out regarding the woman question, for or against Christianity, for or against uniforms or real world action, etc, as they all pull more or less in a pro-white direction in addition to their pet causes.
“The Alt-Right needs to focus much more on morality”
How can this possible by a serious proposal? Of all things in the world, it is on the topic of morality that people of ANY other commonality (like race) are sure to differ most sharply. The pagan/Xian division is just the most obvious example, but on any question at all, morality is likely to divide people who otherwise have much in common — at least in their enemies.
I would contend that, by contrast, issues of morals, morality, religion, and the like are the one area where we should focus the LEAST, and adopt a “live and let live” policy among us. E.g., no one should care if a fellow white advocate is pro-abortion (for sound eugenics reasons) or anti-abortion (for Christian reasons); nor should they care if fellow white advocates are redpilled on women or still stuck white-knighting for women. These are all stupid distractions; they would remain divisions even if there actually were a white “ethnostate” in existence.
White advocacy: advocacy of the white race, advocacy of white identity, advocacy of white culture: that should be all that matters. The Alt-Right’s strength IS in uniting people on these common fronts, because they, and they alone, are what whites (obviously) have in common.
As usual, the NS had it right: it united aristos with proletarians, Christians with pagans, both with atheists, etc. The common link was, in their case, Germany; in our case, it should be our racial commonality. They united all kind of divergent views on “morality,” because they recognized that morality disputes were meaningless, when their common identity was threatened.
Basically, there should be only one tenet on the morality issue: “No passive interpretations of ‘Christian’ morality can be allowed to prevent white advocates from combating the anti-white agenda.”
I agree completely, karsten.
The way forward is to unite the disparate groups on one front, the championing of white identity/survival. And an agreement thereafter to stop the petty infighting in the face of the anti-white hordes arrayed against us.
Let the southern nationalists, the white nationalists, the neo nazis, etc pursue those two goals in their own way, as a loose but united coalition.
This is how the left has been so effective at crushing white america, and it is a tactic we should easily be able to adopt ourselves, as our coalition is much less disparate than theirs.
Agreed. I have doubts about the actions of certain people/groups in the public sphere, but I recognize that they are all drawing fire from the enemy, so that is good. As each of those groups grows, the WN cause will be stronger. Patience. History moves on its own time, not ours.
I agree totally, Solidus, and this is basically what I’ve been thinking and saying for some time. We have to stop picking at one another if we want to succeed.
Karsten, will you kindly explain to me these red pills on women?
It seems that certain truths have become dogma in pro-White circles without women ever having had an opportunity to be heard on these matters.
I think that’s kind of shitty.
I interpreted this as saying that
We need to moralize pro-white behaviors and behaviors that would foster greater cohesion and solidarity among pro-whites.
Not that we need to settle the Christian vs Pagan debate
Some things we are currently doing should be considered deeply shameful as they are harmful to the pro-white movement and tend to erode solidarity among pro-whites
The way in which I would read it most charitably (though this is not indicated in the original post) is thus: Every effort must be made to establish pro-white advocacy, and in general a pro-white imperative, as a moral stance — indeed, as the only valid moral position — and to affirm that being anti-white is categorically immoral.
This, in order to counter the current Leftist stranglehold on cultural morality, according to which being pro-white is intrinsically immoral, whereas being anti-white is morally imperative.
The above is Dr. Kevin MacDonald’s take, when he refers to the moral argument, and he’s absolutely correct. As he puts it:
“Wanting to be seen as a good person by people on the left is a fatal flaw. It assumes the left has the moral high ground; if that is conceded, it’s over. Hard to get Whites to do anything these days unless they see it as morally justified.”
And note that this is pointedly distinct from the usual connotations of the word “morality” (i.e., “moral issues,” in electoineering discourse).
I agree with Mr. Owen, Southern nationalists should continue to push for permanent secession from the Union and a restoration of the Confederacy. Do not become distracted hoping to form some Grand Alliance/Pact of Steel with other movements. Us National Socialists shall pursue our own plans and the reactionaries known as American Nationalists/Civic Nationalists can pound sand. Attempting to combine or unite these disparate forces is an exercise in futility.
No need to push for anything, just get a government in waiting ready and wait for the grid to go down. When things collapse there will be a massive power vacuum and we had better hope the chinks are patient enough to let whites resolve this rather than nuke us all as a precaution. Btw, you can get “hacked” chink RTL radio boards on Ebay for $25 that will let you monitor all radio communication bands (maybe not ELF) and even monitor satelites. We are in a revolution of low cost electronics right now. All the pricey crap from the last 100 years is being mass produced for mere sheckles. I just purchased the original packman internals for $20 and am recreating the game with just the frame of the original for a cool cyber effect. The chinks are our friends here as they are giving us the ability to be more independent of our institutional/corporate monopolies.
The lack of focus is the problem and this is the result of winning everything pretty much in 2017. There is no agreed path forward from this point and petty infighting is pretty typical when there is no obvious focus on the direction forward. My guess is a major (((event))) or a series of major unravelings will change this shortly. I never thought I would see any kind of real action in europe but the alt-right has given them both hope and a road map.
Solidus, you make a good point about the Alt Right being a loose coalition. It is not an organization or structured entity of any kind, but some people seem to have difficulty understanding that. The face of the Alt Right is a handful of polemicists, each with a coterie of followers. I suppose some of the polemicists could get together and make an agreement. It has been tried several times before.
The best definition of alt-right was imo made by Hunter:
Radical Realism – Identity – Iconoclasm
Pax Dickson said red pilling is a process – and this triplet does describe a process by which people can be awakened. Vague enough to be a floating signifier and give cover – but tight enough to stop co-option.
The character of the alt-right was imo:
Genial – Extremely Funny – Tough
AdolfJoeBiden captures it.
The issue with optics is:
Black outfits and flags – which looks like a mashup of ISIS and antifa
National Socialism – Hunter has warned about nazi fetishism
Hunter has also warned about “expressive individualism”. Spencer and Heimbach will do anything to get their faces in front of a camera. Heimbach – prancing around flaming crosses and swastikas.
Spencer likes to invite hostile media for behind the scenes access to edgy PHALANX style activism. Turns out to be a Standard Dox Party for young guys who are given the “gift” of unemployability etc.
Adolf Joe is one of the best personalities on Gab, I’ll tell you what.
“– The Alt-Right needs to focus on more core intellectual work beyond just analyzing the news of the day.”
Greg Johnson’s Counter-Currents website, etc. has been very much focussed on the meta-political, philosophy and culture, for the last 8 years. But he is a clear White Nationalist, who sees the Alt-Right as temporary.
Greg jumped off that bandwagon a while ago.
It’s been extremely disappointing to see what has been happening to TRS. They could have either stood by their principals and been a force to reckon with or they could focus on shekel grabbing, they chose the latter.
TRS has the potential for being a fire-breathing voice of White Resistance – another Radio Wehrwolf. But it seems they prefer to goof around. And now they’ve started in with that paywall business. I must shake my head in dismay.
The paradox I am experiencing is that we are discussing our “next move” in broad daylight. It is not tactically sound to do that, but given our current platforms and preferences, we don’t have alot of options. Actually, we do. But those methods are slower and can handicap our side due to speed of delivery. BUT,..those methods are MORE SECURE.
These discussions need to start occurring behind securely closed doors and operational security needs to become a habit among us.
VETERANS among the folk, this is your time. We have ALOT of willing participants and no REAL leadership on the GROUND.
This has to happen NOW and in small cells in secure contact with one another. Good luck and God help us with that task…
I think Identity Dixie has a pretty decent statement of beliefs.
As far as the “alt right” goes, let the dead bury the dead.
The name of the game is White Nationalism, the name of the game is Partition.
I think it will have to come to that eventually.
In the decades ahead we will be tasked with the job of taking back control of our institutions, borders, army and police, etc. We will need to remove inferiors and incompatibles from or nations in their millions-a mammoth project. Finally we need to get treasonous, immoral politicians before the courts for force feeding policies and changes onto the populace who neither asked, or voted for them. When it gets to this point, down the track, we indeed can only do that as a unified force. None of this will happen tomorrow of course, but we will need UNITY.
You should debate Vox Day regarding the questions you have about the Alt Right. It would be really interesting since I find both of you guys supremely intelligent, and there are probably many like me who read both of you.
Hopeful Signs. CPAC 2018. French delegate, Marion Marechal Le Pen
“Like you we want our country back. Like you I came here to tell you that there is a youth ready for this fight in Europe today.”
‘Alt Right’ as a term was never good. Coined by Jew Paul Gottfried around 2012, Spencer took it up and then it later collided with the woman haters club we know as Anglin’s The Daily Stormer.
A more credible term would have been ‘New Right’ modeled on the European New Right (this, before the so called Alt Lite began to appropriate the term ).
Original white nationalism of 1920’s Lothrop Stoddard, Madison Grant et al combined with the European Conservative Revolutionary movement, is firmer ground, more ideologically worked out, etc. I would add the culture of the 20’s Freikorps movement to the mix. But Alt Right is now too much just a brand sold by the Spencer NPI business shoppe. Get your goods elsewhere.
>”When it became clear that White identity politics wasn’t going to be normalized under the Trump administration”
There’s only one thing stopping this from happening: weirdos who insist on adopting an attitude of hostility and contempt toward Americans instead of acting like serious people who want to win political, cultural and social victories. For this group, it is more important to belong to an edgy social circle and lose than it is to become “normal” and win.
The reason for this is they are poorly socialized to begin with and have found community in these groups. If the groups become “normal” then the maladjusted types won’t fit in anymore because they’re incapable of normalcy. So they fight the normalization of pro-white ideas so as to not lose their social niche.
>At some point, the Alt-Right became so fixated on “optics” that whatever remaining solidarity it had disintegrated.
The “optics” debate is just a superficial covering for the real bone of contention: those who want to fix America and those who want to finish her off. There is near-uniformity here: those that have contempt and hatred for normal Americans (“they’ll never come around anyway”) and express it through adopting hostile, outsider, anti-American aesthetics are the same people who want to see America balkanized.
Because why would you care about what the contemptible “American” thinks about anything when you don’t even want “America” to exist at all.
This is the explanation for the so-called “optics” debate. The armband types don’t care about marginalizing themselves from “America” because they despise “America” and the people in it.
Tell me any of this is wrong, Hunter. I’ll bet you agree at least with the second part.
Maybe, for me, it’s not so much that I don’t want America to exist, as it is that I don’t believe that it does… at least, not anymore. If the North/South divisions were largely healed by the beginning of the 20th century, they have been nothing but exacerbated since the last quarter of it. Additionally, ruptures have developed across the entire North American continent, with nearly a full third of those currently residing in the United (by force) States of America reserving their true allegiance for Mexico.
The foreigners that serve in the military, largely due so for the benefits (although, the same is mostly true of the other service members outside of the combat branches). And, those soldiers who actually believe that they are fighting for the country are merely being used as pawns in a global chess game, and their misguided, feelings of patriotic obligations are being exploited.
Then you have the Black Lives Matters, Antifa, and other Commiecrats, who are, whether we like it or not, Americans too. Or, at least they like to call themselves that when they want to say that racial conciousness or border security is Un-American. Any other time, in their eyes, American Pride equates to Facism. And, the Republicans think all that is necessary to alleve your apprehensions about the future is another .25 cents on your next paycheck. They remind me of shady, used car salesmen with lots full of lemons.
Political, cultural and social victories are only possible when you have sufficient support, and the current populace is either too placated, intimidated, divided or dim witted to vote for, or demand, the kind of changes that will ensure our safety and preserve our identity. Even, “The Outside The Beltway President,” Donald Trump has had to waver since taking office, with his own party dragging their heels, or attempting to trip him up, on almost every move he makes. He says one thing with complete conviction one day and something completely different the next. What can you suggest that is suddenly going to convince Congress to enact and implement the policies that will save America?
The Balkanization that you warn against is already manifest in all but the redrawing of the maps. There are entire cities that are nearly uninhabitable. Each major city in the country has areas that have been invaded and taken over by an overwhelming number of unassimilated foreigners or have been overrun and decimated by criminally inclined, Negroes.
Lee Greenwood, Trace Adkins and all the other Red, White and Blue, Star-Spangled, Patrio-Pop, Crooner Crowd are, unfortunately, much like the S.C.V. leadership, in that they mainly see America as it was, and how it is in their dreams, as opposed to how it actually has become. I know you directed your comments toward Hunter, but from what I can gather, you fall into the category above. Am I wrong?
The alt-rite are high IQ “white” male liberationists who, facing a demand to finally denounce their white male heterosexuality, FLED to the side of “white (s)upremacy,” infiltrating by way of HBD and “scientific racism.”
The bottom line is that the alt-rite is a) anti-white (S)upremacy b) desirous of radical sexual autonomy (acute Asia fetish and sexbot inclinations) and c) the most radically subversive of liberationist movements.
Appearance does not matter, only to losers. Every organization has a dress code. It is not “faggy ass shit” to expect people to look presentable. Gluttony is a deadly sin, so weed out the faggy assed fat sinners before you parade before the cameras. All your other points, I agree with, but on the matter of appearance, you are wrong. Shape up, and put on some presentable duds before hitting the streets.