Counter-Currents: What’s Really At Stake In Ukraine

Greg Johnson thinks that Western nationalists should support Ukraine.

Counter-Currents:

“In my debate with E. Michael Jones on the Ukraine war, my opening statement argued that nationalists in the West — and indeed, around the world — should support Ukraine against its invader, Russia. E. Michael Jones argued that Westerners should not support Ukraine.

Jones began with the history of Jews in Ukraine, apparently assuming that if Jews are involved with anything, it can’t be good. Then he argued that the war is really not between Russia and Ukraine but between Russia and America. There wasn’t a lot of substance to his argument, so I will address it only in passing while dealing with bigger issues.

I will grant that Jews are overrepresented in positions of power in Ukraine and the West, but they are also overrepresented in such positions in Russia. Thus there are Jews on both sides of this war, so no matter which side you take, you are going to end up agreeing with some Jews. Thus this war cannot be seen simply as Jews vs. non-Jews. You can’t explain the differences between two parties in terms of what they have in common. This war is about another, more fundamental clash between Russia and Ukraine that has polarized the Jewish community as well.

Is this an ethnic war between Ukrainians and Russians? …”

Greg has always supported Ukraine.

I respect his position because he has been consistently pro-Ukraine, but I definitely don’t share it. I don’t see any upside in Americans getting involved in a border dispute on the fringes of Europe.

My first and only thought about Ukraine is … why is this our problem? Why should Americans get involved in this war and fight Russia over the status of Donbas and Crimea? Since when has Ukraine become a vital interest of the United States? What relevance does Ukraine have to our own security and prosperity? What exactly does America gain from this new special relationship with Ukraine and the Baltic states?

Here are five compelling reasons why we shouldn’t get involved in the war in Ukraine:

1. Americans don’t know anything about Ukraine. We don’t have close cultural, economic or historical ties to Ukraine. The war in Ukraine over Donbas has been going on for eight years with zero coverage here. The vast majority of Americans are completely unaware of this. Mitch McConnell recently told Axios, “I expect that most Americans wouldn’t have been able to find Ukraine on a map two months ago. This is a development that they’re now watching. They’re watching these atrocities.” 

Once again, no one cared about Ukraine three months ago. The sole reason that Americans care about Ukraine is because of media manipulation. Unlike the wars in Yemen or Ethiopia, the war in Ukraine is being covered by “journalists” now. We deeply care because cameras are being pointed there. These cameras are being pointed there because our elites want us to care about Ukraine. The same elites didn’t want us to care about the war in Donbas for eight years until Russia invaded in February.

First and foremost, we shouldn’t get involved in this war in Ukraine because we know little about the country. We are being manipulated by our elites and by the media. We’ve been down this road many times before and it doesn’t tend to work out well for us. We’re not committed to Ukraine.

2. The only vital interest America has in Ukraine is avoiding war with Russia. There are only a handful of scenarios that could truly destroy this country and getting into a nuclear war with Russia over a place like Ukraine is at the top of the list. It wasn’t something that America was willing to do during the Cold War or even after the Soviet Union collapsed and President George H.W. Bush warned against Ukrainian nationalism in the Ukrainian parliament in Kyiv. It was George W. Bush who began the push for bringing Ukraine into NATO in 2008 at the Bucharest Summit. It was a non-starter then and it remains a non-starter to this day because there isn’t unanimous support for Ukraine’s NATO membership.

Ukraine is a place that our neocon/neoliberal foreign policy establishment began to care about in the 2000s. It was either a part of the Russian Empire or a part of the Soviet Union throughout our entire history down until the 1990s. Andrew Jackson’s Secretary of State James Buchanan who later became President James Buchanan negotiated a commercial treaty with Russia. We had good relations with Russia for the rest of the 19th century. The Russians sold us Alaska during the Reconstruction era.

We are separated from Donbas and Crimea by the Atlantic Ocean and the entire European continent. There is no reason why what goes on there should be of any concern to Americans. It would be equally absurd for Ukrainians to care about illegal immigration from Central America to the United States.

3. The war in Ukraine is harming the American working class and middle class. There is nothing in Ukraine whether it is natural gas, steel, coal, oil, chemicals or corn and wheat that we don’t already have in abundance here or can and in most cases already do produce ourselves. It is a different story for the European Union. Ukraine is on the border of the European Union and it might be a prize worth fighting over for Europeans, as it was during the Second World War, but definitely not for Americans. The European Union has a larger population that the United States and an economy comparable to our own. There is no reason why Europeans can’t fight it out with Russia over Ukraine. This conflict is in their backyard.

This war in Ukraine is harming Americans through higher inflation, gas prices and aggravating our existing supply chain issues. There is no economic upside to the war. There is no security upside to the war. It is a lose-lose situation for the vast majority of Americans. Elites want us to care about this war now. They didn’t care about the fighting in Donbas for eight years or the thousands of people who have died there. Why is it so important to stand with Ukraine in 2022, but it wasn’t in 2017?

4. The war in Ukraine isn’t a clash between nationalism and imperialism. As I have stated many times, Russia is an autocratic multicultural empire. Russia has designs on Ukraine, but this is nothing new. This is Russia as it has always existed since the days of Catherine the Great. It wasn’t any concern of ours when Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire for over 200 years.

Why is Ukraine such a burning issue now? It is because Russian imperialism is clashing with American imperialism and European imperialism. The Ukrainian government wants to join the European Union and NATO. This conflict is fundamentally a clash between empires. It is also nothing new. There have been many occasions in Ukrainian history in which Ukraine switched sides and was a battleground between empires. There was the time when Bohdan Khmelnytsky sided with Russia against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. There was the time when Ivan Mazepa sided with Sweden against Russia in the Great Northern War. Most famously, there were the Ukrainian nationalists who sided with Hitler and the Nazis against the Soviet Union in World War II. This is a theme in Ukrainian history.

Why should any of this ancient history of imperial clashes in remote parts of Eastern Europe be of any concern to Americans? The raison d’être of the United States and the reason why so many of our ancestors came here in the first place was precisely to escape from these European dynastic feuds. Sadly, this country has become over time exactly what it rejected when our ancestors broke away from the British Empire. Previous generations were still close enough to the Founding to keep us out of the Crimean War.

5. America’s ruling class is corrupt and incompetent and can’t be trusted. After the previous disasters in Serbia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Libya, the last thing we should be doing is plunging into a new war in Ukraine. Do we want Ukraine to become another Syria or Afghanistan, which is the best case scenario, or another Poland, which is the worst case scenario and sucks us into World War III with Russia? Either way, Ukraine gets flattened. The war in Ukraine is just another excuse to suck trillions of dollars out of the American taxpayer now that Afghanistan can no longer be used for that purpose.

Should we get involved in the war in Ukraine because it is the principled ethnonationalist position? If so, whose side should we take in the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan? How should we as Americans adjudicate issues like who does Nagorno-Karabakh belong to? The truth is, we shouldn’t get involved in such disputes because we have no interest at stake or any dog in these fights.

These wars in places like Ukraine and the Caucasus and Central Asia (we were there for 20 years) ought to be off the table and ruled completely out of bounds as they are inconsistent with the purpose of our existence as a nation. The only reason such places are of any concern to us now is because our elites are now addicted like their British predecessors to looking at maps of their realm in the world.

Note: It would be fitting for the American Empire to go down into the dustbin of history like the British Empire. The trigger in the British case was a war with an aggrieved Germany over Poland over a border dispute over Danzig. In that case, Britain loudly condemned German expansionism and went to war to defend Polish sovereignty while occupying much of the planet. It was a war between “tyranny” and “democracy.” It was a war between “good” and “evil.” Britain bankrupted itself. On Earth 2, Britain could have easily avoided the war, but its destiny was shaped by its low church evangelical Protestant character which reduced every conflict between nations into a battle between angels and demons.

About Hunter Wallace 12387 Articles
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent

46 Comments

  1. I think Putin is going to an extreme but he’s trying to get back something that has been rotted away by western influence. While America fights wars to spread democracy, Russia fights wars based on geographical location. Putin is willing to kill a lot of people to buffer himself. He wouldn’t be in this quagmire if the US didn’t prop up its regime changes all over from the Arab Spring to Saakashvili in Georgia to the change in regime in Ukraine itself.

    • Russia should take all of Ukraine, to keep it out of NATO.
      Ukraine as a member of NATO would be a hair-trigger situation that could lead to nuclear war with the slightest provocation.

      NATO is a useless organiztion whose only potential is too cause a cataclysmic war.

      • Agree. Ukraine should want to be under Russia’s umbrella. Otherwise, they will be under NATO or EU. Russia doesn’t want this next door.
        The USA criticizes Putin, but if one state wanted to secede, they wouldn’t allow it…and the states were supposed to be more like small nations with capitals and militias, not the watered down county-like structures they are now.

  2. E. Michael Jones is Irish too. Is there a push on to create this “transnational white supremacy” as the next big boogieman?

    Greg has had a number of articles posted on his site featuring Olena Semenyaka, the first lady of Azov.

    https://counter-currents.com/tag/olena-semenyaka/

    I did a search on the Occidental Dissent website for Olena Semenyaka—-

    Nothing found.

    What are the Irish up to?

      • @Sertorius—-If you can’t see it is the Irish inside of Murica pushing for war you are as blind as a bat. Have you been Hannotized?? boostered? You better get you booster there Christ killer.

          • @Tikkun Olam is coming for You—-They, the Irish do the dirty work. Little Pilate. And the funny thing is the Irish think they are Christian. Try not to piss yourself on that one. Have you been Hannotized Mick?

  3. Americans should not be supporting any more govt funded wars, especially Whites and definitely not supporting the side that the govt, media complex supports.

    • We have no real control on our overlords actions.

      The great bulk of the population just parrot media cliches, a thoughtless herd.

      • Smart white men should not join the military. That’s one thing that can be done. There was a time when they could become pilots and other top level intelligent positions. But now, the military is just a global police force for the tribe.

  4. “Then he argued that the war is really not between Russia and Ukraine but between Russia and America. There wasn’t a lot of substance to his argument, so I will address it only in passing while dealing with bigger issues”

    So he will avoid answering the point that makes his position retarded.

  5. Greg as Jared Taylor are good examples why Western white nationalism lost until now. Can you imagine that for example that Orban will declare support for some Antifa controlled country ? Some of Eastern European nationalists are also ignorant and dumb as hell but none of them supported Seattle Autonomous Zone or Portland Antifa or BLM or whatever freedom fighting against Kremlin agents brave real Americans currently have.

  6. Greg Johnson glows and is full of shit. The so-called “nationalists” in Ukraine (Judeo-Nazis) are owned and operated by Jews. They are as fake as the Scottish Nationalist Party – which wants to join the EUSSR. It is not a war for nationalism, and the war started 8 years ago. The recent intervention by Russia is the direct result of the final rejection by Zelensky of the Minsk Agreement to end shelling in Dombass. The coincided with a massive buildup of Ukrainian forces (controlled by Judeo-Nazi political officers and enlisted down to the squad level – 1 in 10 of UAF) to invade Dombass, increased bombardment of Dombass, Globopedo bio-warfare labs and a threat to obtain nukes. Ukraine is not a real country. It’s a Globopedo forward base used for money-laundering, human-trafficking, etc. It’s owners need to be destroyed.

  7. Nah. I think it’s just fine if Greg can no longer find any catamites on his visits to ‘israel’.

    • @John “White”
      Putin is not pro white. If you are calling everyone you don’t like nazi, because a billionaire jew told you to use that particular talking point, then you are anti-white. Period.

      @Hunter
      No one believes the Dissident Right/America First crowd are neutral on this conflict, because you all write non-stop sympathetic articles supporting Russia.

      I think Greg is right on this point:
      “If you are fine with this because you think that Putin is conservative, Christian, reactionary, or illiberal, then you are not a nationalist who puts the preservation of our race and its distinct peoples above all else. Please come clean about this. Then let’s shake hands and part ways here.”

      And no, this doesn’t mean I support the war in Ukraine. The best outcome would be the people on both sides of the conflict, rise up, and overthrow their anti-white governments.

      • 1. I don’t want any alliance with Russia.

        2. I don’t support intervening on the side of Russia.

        3. I don’t support sanctions on Ukraine.

        4. I don’t support sending weapons to Russia.

        No one is calling for that either. The argument is solely between those who are supporting Ukraine and those who want nothing to with the war

        We live in the Western hemisphere about as fat away from Ukraine as you can get.

        • “Western hemisphere about as far away from Ukraine as you can get.”

          America’s character has become essentially jewish.
          Among the many defects of jewish character, is the compulsion to stick their noses into other peoples issues, such as the Russo-Ukrainian conflict.

          • It is a different story for Jews whose ancestors came from the Pale in Ukraine like Victoria Nuland

      • E. Michael Jones is correct that the war in Ukraine has nothing to do with race. It is like a war between the United States and Canada or Spain and Portugal.

        • It is an imperialist war – waged by the U.S. against Russia for the control of wealth, using inter-ethnic (or sub-ethnic) divide-and-conquer propaganda technique. Even most “race wars” are really imperialist wars, using race as a distraction from the elites’ theft of common wealth.

        • yep…NO MORE BROTHER WARS!
          These satanic kikes and philo-semetic scumfucks in every government in the western world must be creaming in their crossdressing panties now that the entire white world is on the brink of another massive , lengthy world war that will wipe countless white people out.

          You cant get any real fact based answer out of an average american on what we gain out of getting involved in this conflict…just more sheepish parroting of the enemy jewish medias talking points and literal made up LIES.

      • “a nationalist who puts the preservation of our race and its distinct peoples above all else”:

        Such a “nationalist” must put the extermination of the Asian and Negroid races (and Talmudists, and insufficiently-White White peoples) above all else, in order to preserve the White race!

        But I always say a true ethno-nationalist is necessarily also an internationalist, with respect and good will for all other peoples that exist on this planet.

        • We want separation and our own living space. We are the ones being exterminated by internationalism.

  8. “its low church evangelical Protestant character which reduced every conflict between nations into a battle between angels and demons”

    My isolationism (or foreign-policy restraint) suits my Calvinism: I don’t believe in good guys.

    While I am low-church evangelical Protestant, I’m not a millenarian, which, I believe is the crux of the issue. Postmillennialism dominated during the time of the Puritans (and which, I believe, is still a driving force behind the “social-reform” moments spearheaded by their offspring) as did premillennialism during the halcyon days of the British Empire, but they both have the same problem (not to mention being biblically unsubstantiated, in my opinion): they conflate society, as represented by the state, with the church, whereas the New Testament takes care to make clear that they are distinct and exist for different purposes. As exemplified by history, the state taking on the task of the church (no matter how distant it may be from the task of the church in actuality, I believe the millenarian drive is still highly influential on the motives of Western elites) results only in catastrophe.

  9. If you want to see E. Michael Jones’ version of his debate with Queen Greg, search for …

    “Are the White Boys Willing to Die in Defense of the Gay Disco?”

    • I think the pink (as opposed to red) areas are former colonies and allied states or protectorates of the British Empire ca.1935. It’s a confusing map. The red areas were definitely British Empire before WW II. The pink partial sections of the USA and France were at one time under British rule. I don’t think Tibet, Madagascar or Iran were ever under British rule. Iran (Persia then) was never partly ruled by Britain (as on the map) so I have no idea what that’s about.

      • E.C., you are correct about the pink areas. Persia and Tibet (and Sinkiang also, but the map doesn’t show it) were both under British influence and intended for semi-colonial rule, the former being “disputed with Russia” and the latter case being the reason why China expanded – to prevent encirclement on the west by the British Empire. The Anglo-Talmudic West has been “trying to help” the Uyghurs and Tibetans for more than a century.

    • Areas that were occupied for some time by the Empire but did not end up as part of the 19th century Empire?

  10. Whenever there’s some big development or conflict somewhere in the world, Jews are at the epicenter of it, playing both sides. They aren’t pushing us to go to war with Mexico because of invasions on the southern border, yet want us in wars that don’t directly concern us.
    We need a funded and supported military throughout the West, manned by real men……….to fight real problems closer to home.

  11. “It’s a Globopedo forward base used for money-laundering, human-trafficking, etc.”:

    Just like Albania, a narco mafia state that is a NATO member in very good standing.

  12. “yet want us in wars that don’t directly concern us”:

    No. It DOES directly concern us because we CREATED and we RUN this war. This war (and a lot of other, similar wars) wouldn’t exist without us, so it’s not a matter of “we should stay out of it” because the war is us! This crucial fact cannot be emphasized and repeated enough!

    No more of this ridiculous “It’s really none of our business” excuse-making! The “it” (the war) is us. It is nothing BUT our business. Therefore when it is over and we have been defeated, we should be required and forced by a REAL international war crimes court, to pay at least one trillion dollars of reparations. How much is each destroyed human life worth?

    • If by “our” you mean the rulers of the Empire of Lies – yes they are 100% responsible the situation and all of the death and destruction (which they revel in). To characterize Putin’s intervention in an ongoing war against Russians as Russian imperialism is nonsense bordering on calumny. Russia would have never intervened in Country 404 if Globopedo had not turned it into a forward base for a multi-level war directed against Russia. No Russian leader would have allowed this to continue – and “Putler” has been far more patient with the owners of Johnson’s favorite catamite-farm than most historical Russian leaders would have been.

      HW is genuinely correct that the empire’s meddling is not at all in the interest of the zeks living in the Chiquitastan gulag of the empire any more than it is in the interest of the Welsh zeks living in the British gulag of the empire. The zeks have no means of removing their rulers or the gulag guards, at least not any we can mention here. Putin is not going to be St. George who slays the demonic dragon who rules over the west. That’s not his job, nor is it Xi’s or any other foreign ruler. Greg Johnson supporting a fake-and-gay “nationalism” in Country 404 is not in our interest either and here is no legitimate case for supporting any fake “nationalist” golem created by Jews. BTW, it’s now confirmed there are approximately 100 foreign nationals trapped in the Mariupol cauldron, possibly including a Chiquitastan general. This is pretty damned serious and could very quickly escalate into a much bigger war.

      • Yes that’s what I meant by “our.” I was speaking rhetorically. Hunter seems to be using “our” (as in “none of our business”) to mean Americans or U.S. citizens, or maybe, White Americans, or southern nationalists. But all U.S. citizens give tacit consent to the war and become responsible for it by voting, holding citizenship, and paying taxes for it. The U.S. population as a whole becomes responsible for paying reparations for the death and destruction, et cetera. That is what I meant by “our,” “we” and “us.” I was speaking rhetorically only, because it’s not my war.

    • I’m not shipping weapons there. I’m not holding stocks in the weapon making companies. Some of my pay is confiscated against my wishes to pay for it, though.

  13. The issue was discussed two weeks ago. The consensus on the dissident right was to back Russia in the American empire’s proxy war in Ukraine. Greg Johnson and Richard Spencer are irrelevant to dissident right’s efforts to restore the American republic.

  14. Gerg Blorhnson and Dickie Spencer are irrevelant and in the case of the former a homosexual degenerate who always speak for himself and his own perveted interests

    That is all you need to know and all we should be preparing for is to fill the power vaccum when the US federal government fall and we balkanize

    The world is changing and on the ashes of Europe and america a new order will be decided this time our order
    Let it all burn! it´s 1861,1914 and 1939 but this time we hold all the cards

    Deo Vindice

  15. Am I surprised that a homosexual has rationalized his support of globohomo in Ukraine? No. Zelensky playing a piano with his dick is right up Greg’s alley. Jews playing both sides of this conflict? That’s a non-starter, because they always do. But let’s play with that a little: Putin’s Jews haven’t hurt me; whereas, Western Jews sure as hell have. There is no doubt in my mind that the Jewish diaspora is better represented by globohomo than it is by Putin’s kikes. I wonder, how many Jews have been suffering from Ukrainian shelling of the Donbass for the past 8 years? (Zero)

    I support the ethnic Russians in the Donbass. Therefore, I support Putin and his Jews over Globohomo’s kikes. Greg Johnson can fuck off.

  16. The real war is between the bankers and the human race, and the people of the West will pay disproportionately for this situation.

    All the sanctions, and Western businesses just walking away from assets in Russia, will hit pension funds etc, and the increasingly high prices for fuel and food will soon go stratospheric.

    The middle and working classes of the West are the real targets of all this shit.

    And it’s working a treat.

  17. Here is a Reason #6 NOT to fight in Ukraine for you all.

    If all (or even a significant number of) the strong, brave, masculine right-wing Western men go to war in Ukraine, and are severely injured or die (because, despite everything the Western MSM is putting out, Russia can and will win this war), then who will be left in the West to start families, father children and fight the globalists?

    Here is a Reason #7.

    Viktor Orban is a reasonable leader who puts the interests of his nation first, and he is perfectly able to negotiate deals with Putin (despite all the past negative history between Hungary and Russia).

    The reason why negotiations with other Western nations continually failing is because the globalists are hellbent on destroying Russia, whatever it takes.

    But if reasonable people were to come to rule other Western nations, a lot would be possible to solve not through brother wars, but in a diplomatic way.

    So… focus on taking out the trash at home, guys.

    And ask yourselves, do the people trying to convince you to fight on the side of the globalists (and for their interests) truly have your best interests in mind?

    • “Viktor Orban is a reasonable leader who puts the interests of his nation first”:

      Orban is a very skilled politician who knows how to play the Hungarian people like a violin. He is a right-populist, not revolutionary, an enemy of the people. You’ll see.

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