A Response To Michael Hill

Dr. Michael Hill has posted the following statement on the League of the South website:

“Some members (and former members) of The League have eloped with the Alt-Right, caught up in all the excitement of Trump’s Presidential victory. This is nothing I didn’t expect, especially from some of our younger members.”

Where to begin here?

At least in my case, the most obvious starting point is that my ties to the Alt-Right go back to 2009/2010 and my involvement in White Nationalism goes back to 2001. I didn’t join the League of the South until 2012. I also joined the Council of Conservative Citizens in 2010 and married into a White Nationalist family.

As long as I have been a member of the League of the South, I have been involved with the Council of Conservative Citizens. There was never a point when I saw any conflict between the two. I’ve been involved in both groups for the last three years now. Over the past three years, I attended League of the South conferences and Council of Conservative Citizens conferences. We also went to the 2013 Amren conference.

Just off the top of my head, I have known Richard Spencer, Gregory Hood (my old roommate), Paul Kersey, Matt Parrott, Don Black, Kyle Rodgers, Nathaniel Strickland, the Baums (my in-laws), Jared Taylor, Sam Dickson, James Edwards, Greg Johnson and many others in the real world since 2009/2010. Occidental Dissent was started in 2006 as a White Nationalist blog. In 2010, it was even a collective Alt-Right blog when four of us lived together as roommates in Charlottesville, Virginia. My old roommate William Rome from New York attended the 2014 League of the South Conference.

So this is nothing new on my part. I’ve known these people for many years now and before I was involved with the League. I’m happy about their great breakthrough.

“But I warn them to be cautious for at least three reasons: 1) the Alt-Right is a new, largely internet-based movement. Because of its amorphous and mercurial nature, it may or may not have any staying power. Unlike Southern nationalism or the various Euro-nationalist movements, which have an historic tradition and/or an “on-the-street” presence in real life, the Alt-Right does not.”

It has been around as the “Alt-Right” since 2008/2009. The scene was around online years before that. It is nothing new. There are Alt-Right conferences and regional meetups. I should know because it was the first real world event I ever attended. That kind of thing has been going on ever since. As for the street activism, that was our idea and it was fun but there is a ceiling on it by the power of the dominant taboos.

“Moreover, Trump has pretty much disavowed any connections with the Alt-Right, making moot any claims (true or not) that the latter got him elected.”

If the Alt-Right got maybe a billion dollars worth of free publicity out of it, does it really matter? You could put up 20,000 billboards across the South and it still wouldn’t be worth that advertising.

“2) Trump likely will disappoint the true nationalist right by his cabinet choices and his policies as President.”

It is still a win-win situation.

If he keeps his promises, then he does a lot of good for us, so great. If he sells out his followers, he loses his legitimacy and opens himself up to criticism on nationalist and populist grounds. It just becomes easier to radicalize his followers. Even The New York Times sees this.

“And 3) the Alt-Right has no basis in our historic Christian faith. White Europe and its offspring (the US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, et al) will not be resurrected as Christendom–its only hope of true freedom and prosperity–by adopting secularism as its worldview.”

Religion has always been a point of disagreement in the Alt-Right. I just got finished talking to a reporter about that very issue. The story should be out soon. We talked about Southern Nationalism in detail.

“New, shiny toys can beguile and distract. Don’t be fooled. Our problems are deep-seated and will not be solved overnight by memes and the politicians they purportedly help elect. Our problems likely will be solved the old-fashioned way, and the Alt-Right is not equipped to handle that scenario.”

This is the major point of disagreement.

I don’t think militias, survivalism or violent apocalyptic rhetoric – the 1980s and 1990s is the way forward. When I joined the League of the South, it was none of those things. Because of Lügenpresse guilt by association, I had to deal with the aftermath of the Dylann Roof shooting in Charleston. I’ve never wanted to be associated with violent vanguardists like that. I don’t want to attract or encourage unstable people who do stupid things.

Why would I want to do that? If you spend all your time patrolling a rural area, building a bunker, prepping for the collapse of civilization, saber rattling, all you are doing in succeeding in marginalizing yourself. You are showing your lack of interest in persuading people to join your cause. Even if it is true the system can’t be reformed, I think it is still true that participating in politics is vastly more effective at getting our message out. That’s my takeway from Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul and Donald Trump.

One last thing: if you want to go down that road, then fine. I don’t really care. I’m going to do something else. There are people all over the internet doing their own thing and we should accept that.

About Hunter Wallace 12381 Articles
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent


  1. I’d like everyone to look at the following documentary. It’s about the start of the English Civil War. It demonstrates that the press set the stage for the war. In the 1630s the lugenpresse and fake news changed world history and made Republicanism viable in the English speaking world.
    Including the early American colonies. We live in the age of the internet. What commonwealth might spring from this amorphous new fangled technology?

    • Interesting that I am seeing this, now, Captain, as, just a few hours back, I remarkt this to John Bonnacorsi…

      The South represents the oldest English culture – that of piety,
      self-superiority blended with humble introspection, and that of Chryst centrick White beliefs.

      The North represents the modern English culture – a culture which, though born in the early Middle Ages, crosst over the Rubicon at the beheading of Charles I and which rose with the
      ascension of the Roundheads – the leader of which, Oliver Cromwell, who, as you doubtlessly know, was uniquely disposet to Jewry.

      And, not coincidentally, from that time forth, you can see the rise of The English Empire with the rise of Jews in England.

      I assert this because, as I have come to see it, wherever Jewish
      culture is in ascension – all the traits of empire – exploitation,
      centralization, wars of conquest, rampant-individualism, coercion, corporatism, systemick usurpation & usury, and secularism will be manifest.

      Somehow, through it all – The South, and it’s sprawling culture of little uncentralized village churches, has held onto Chryst; – all this while while The Modern English Church has been largely relegated to an irrelevant role in modern English life, though, over here – it still retains a certain strength; as it champions lesbians bishops, gay marriage, secularism, diversity, multiculturalism – just a few from the list of heresies that invalidate it as an authentick Christian institution.

      England is a Jewish country – whether the English
      know it or not, just as is the far western and northeastern parts of this country.

      Not surprisingly the Jews have been waging an all-out undeclared cultural war on the South and bible-believing
      Midwest, to do precisely what they have done to the other parts of the Anglo-Saxon world that they, many centuries ago, conquered.

      Most Southerners don’t know it, but The Lord does.

      Will he lift a hand to deliver his faithful children from The Devil and his minions?

  2. I was raised Catholic so I identify with Christian values, at least some, but I don’t see the faith working for nationalism for a couple reasons.

    That said, Dr. Hill is beyond wise to warn against the rootless cosmopolitan cyber-phantom that is the Alt Right.

    • I’ll work with the subgroup of the Alt-Right that is Pro White. I’ll work with anyone who is Pro White, under whatever conditions they are able. You can’t afford to be choosy, when the enemy has his foot on your neck.

        • I don’t care what label they make up for themselves. If they aren’t spreading memes that change the minds of millions of people in our favor, they aren’t in the game of politics. Glorified social clubs don’t interest me.

          • What I mean by ALT REICH is unapologetically White unapologetically Right. We won’t back down or change our message to make it more palatable.

            All of the oldsters like Dr. Hill and Jared Taylor need to understand this is a NEW DAY and it is time for NEW THINGS. Things are sold differently these days, time to adapt

          • Agreed. The problem is the Breitbart people seized some the press with the ALT RIGHT and attempted a Coup against the REAL ALT RIGHT or should I call it the ALT REICH. Thankfully Hunter and Andrew Anglin havent backed down and we never will back down

          • They cannot, Mr. Jackson, because, if they did, then they, as Afterthought mentioned, would be like The League and have a very difficult time checking into hotel, anywhere in the 50 states.

            You cannot approach the vast mainstream by using a word they have been taught to regard as The Devil.

            You must use other words and ways, that arrive at the same end, without short-circuiting the fuses of many would-be converts.

            Have a good night!

          • Dr. Hill and Lord Jared are very good but they are old-school reactionaries. What we need right now are visionaries and revolutionaries.

          • Yes the time for Rhetoric is over with and has been over with for about 30 years its just someone didn’t get the wakeup call

  3. We should be engaging our people with a positive, populist and nationalist message that will appeal to average Southerners. No talk of violence. No un-necessary off-putting rhetoric.

      • The message has to be SEXY/CATCHY Hunter, thats how it is with all things. The problem Dr. Hill seems not to be getting here is that he seems to want to retreat back to the tired bromides that dont work. The time for the tired bromide the safe bets are OVER. This is Revolution time and we will have to convince those of our ideas through selling them, making our ideas sexy or cool. MEME’ing the ideas to death if you will.

        I am not ALT+RITE I am ALT+REICH. We don’t have to be the same thing to be together. I wouldnt find a single Southern Nationalist who wouldnt agree with the 14 Words of David Lane

        “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.

        I could read this very quote said in many different ways from literally HUNDREDS of Southern writers/politicians/speakers from ca 1840-1860

    • I think this is a good point because, in my experience, Southerners naturally lean towards conservative flavored populism. They’re just not as radical – on average – as New Englanders.

      So you have to cater your message to that audience. Make it sexy, exciting, etc. but don’t overdo it. It’s all about reaching the golden spot that resonates well with your audience.

    • I guess it depends on what you call off putting rhetoric.

      But I do believe we need to be doing more shitlording. Look at the success of Daily Stormer and TRS. Granted, they are reaching out to a larger market than we are, but we are losing market share fast and it worries me.

      Most people are not great thinkers, are not going to read the books you recommend, and lack the balls to take a stand where they may be ostracized or publicly mocked. Most people simply cannot do it.

      We need an outreach similar to DS to do what we’re trying to do. It needs to publicly mock our enemies, make jokes about the absurdity of equality, talk about bringing back slavery, conquests, winning the pretty girls, etc. Look at this pic.

      Boring logical arguments from polite, erudite men in suits simply cannot compete with that. This one pic is probably worth a thousand street demonstrations.

      People can do academic work til cows come home, but if you can’t be the cool kid, you’re going to get left in the dust.

  4. What Mr. Hill doesn’t seem to understand is that the alt-right is not a mass movement and was never intended to be one.

  5. I think there is some smart prepping that people can do, like maintiaining an inventory of canned foods, rice, beans, drinking water, having a generator or gas cooker, basic guns, reasonable ammo store, etc. Even if I were building a house and could afford it, I’d probably include a basement that could quickly double as a DIY fallout shelter.

    But if your prepping is something that a cable TV program wants to come to your house and film you doing, then you may be overdoing it a bit.

    At the end of the day, we have limited money to not only reach millions of people, but to motivate, to animate, and to become the strong horse that they are attracted to as the current order falls apart. And few things are going to give us a better ROI in that department than being Internet ninjas.

  6. Lets not forget the enemy using memes over decades is what got White nations
    into this mess.

    A good meme is harder to create than an essay. It conveys a complex idea in an instant. It is spread slowly at first through sheer hard work of activists and in its final stages it turns viral and takes over the world.

    Changing minds is the business of politics.

  7. An old conservative stuck in the rut of writing essays in response to the Daily Outrage, has over time become magic thinking.

    At least the alt-right is starting to become effective at discrediting the Left explicitly instead of expecting the “people to wake up” after another monotonous essay.

  8. I am not ALT+RITE which means nothing I am ALT+REICH meaning I stand for the values of National Socialism, which I know Dr. Hill and I would strongly disagree on and the only criticism I would offer Dr. Hill is that I would say the Confederate style States Rights FAILED in 1861-65 and it would fail today. Nations need STRONG MEN and STRONG LEADERS. I wish it wasn’t that way but it is.

    Jeff Davis was hindered by the ridiculous States Rights Politicians from being a more effective leader than he was to the point that state and local authorities simply stole from the Confederate Government. Dr. Hill would not want a repeat of this situation, neither would Hunter or anyone else.

    I supported the LOS a little in the late 1990’s then I turned on them a bit when some were trying to push the ANTI-KLAN/Racism line into Southern Nationalism. A few of the more cowardly Neo-Confederates like Thomas DiLorenzo attempted to convince Southern Nationalists that Race and the Nation are two seperate things.Well excuse me all to heck Mr. DiLorenzo but Davis, Stephens, Rhett, Fitzhugh, Ruffin and countless others knew NATION=RACE and RACE=NATION. and said so COUNTLESS TIMES They are joined like your body’s two eyes or two ears. cannot be seperated.

    I say it like this and this is where I stand. IF YOU DO NOT STAND FOR THE FOURTEEN WORDS OF DAVID LANE,. you are no Brother of Mine. The Fourteen Words had they been muttered in 1861 would have been as sacred as God Save the South as thats EXACTLY what the CSA stood for

    “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

    This is exactly what the CONFEDERACY STOOD FOR. What say you Dr. Hill???????

    • I agree, sir, with the 14 words. It also stood for keeping the South “White Man’s Land.” That is what we stand for today.

      • Exactly and I am not sure how some Neo-Confederates so-called can advocate anything that is not exclusively PRO-WHITE then claim to be students of Southern History, reading men who advocated EXACTLY WHAT DAVID LANE SAID. Cognitive dissonance or something or nother

        • Pro-white? Brother, white people burned Atlanta and laid waste to our nation. Don’t ask me to be “pro-white”.

          • The very life blood of the Southern Confederacy was advocacy OF BY AND FOR WHITE SOUTHERN PEOPLE and the preservation of said people at all costs. VICE PRESIDENT ALEXANDER STEPHENS CORNERSTONE SPEECH 3/21/1861

            Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

            Vice President Alexander Stephens said right there that devotion to White Race is what makes one a Southerner and a Confederate. You can no more separate PRO-WHITE from CONFEDERATE as you can separate blood from your own body. It is the lifeblood within the Confederate Constitution and the very principle behind which the Confederate Army stood. Civic Nationalism wont cut that.

  9. Dr Hill smells a rat.

    Good on him.

    Spencer’s Twitter was banned at the most opportune time to give publicity to NPI 2016. He gave the Dishonest Media exactly what they wanted. And now his Twitter is reinstated. Curious. Better men (Greg Johnson, Brad Griffin, etc.) do not get groomed (double
    entendre intended) by the media for good reason: they could actually

    NPI 2015 was no better. Spencer banned Matthew Heimbach, laudable as a hero, even if flawed, while embracing a fellow named Jack Donovan who nobody ever heard of, but was key to Spencer’s strategy of homosexual outreach (sic!).

    While the League of the South can’t get a hotel in Nowhere, TN without withering harassment, Spencer waltzes right into the Belly of the Beast with no more than a few token antifa with silly string!

    The Alt Right, properly understood, is not the broader populist right: it isn’t Alex Jones, Paul Joseph Watson, Ron or Rand Paul, Stefan Molyneaux, Paul Ramsey, Vox Day, Greg Johnson, Davis Aurini, or even Jared Taylor, Don Black, Peter Brimelow and other white nationalists.

    No, properly understood, the Alt Right, is the vehicle of three individuals, Richard Spencer (who popularized the term), Mike Enoch and Andrew Anglin and their devotees. In their recent “triumvirate” podcast, they called for abortion on demand, further burning people alive, gassing kikes, and had little to nothing to say of God that wasn’t derogatory, decrying the idea of any Right Universal which is at the heart of white religion in favor of Nietzsche’s Will to Power. Demonic?

    It’s a dead end. Seductive, perhaps, because it promises rapid and nearly effortless victory through “meme (black) magic” and “willing things into existence”. More sober minds realize that a white homeland on the North American continent will either never come about, or may only come about through a hellish warscape that would make grown men weep for death, rather than fight on through the rubble. What we could and should offer is a picture of the journey and the destination that actually could appeal to 80+% of whites who would reasonably prefer the slow steady decline of the current system to the rapid, bloody decline offered by Spencer and Co.

    This issue is not going away.

    • The Alt-Right is winning.

      Mainstream cuckservatism? Not so much.

      The Alt-Right are the vanguard, so we can’t expect most people to see, comprehend, or accept where it’s going.

    • I don’t really know what to think of Anglin.

      Remember, this was a guy who in 2012 was saying on radio shows that White people needed to be bred out of existence – and then in 2013 he was a fully-fledged ‘neo-Nazi.’

      People who make complete 180s in their political views within a short span of time are normally either unstable or insincere. That just isn’t normal behavior.

      • I don’t know anything about Anglin’s background but DS does a great job of satirizing and ridiculing our enemies. It’s entertaining because we get a chance to laugh and sneer at those who hate us. No wonder DS is so popular.

      • And none of the “experts”, CIA included, saw it coming. For that matter, in 1980 I envisioned USSR going on indefinitely. I never would have dreamed it would end a decade later.

    • It’s all about changing hearts, minds and attitudes. Symbols do matter, as Negro Coates did note. Memes are a way of creating the Zeitgeist.

    • Memes are good because most normies don’t actually read political article, but they will laugh at a funny meme and consider the point it makes.

    • I recently listened to a very good interview with Dr. Hill on Musonius Rufus’ Rebel Yell podcast. Did you have a chance to hear it yet?

    • I wouldn’t call it a silver bullet, because we do need an intellectual foundation for our ideology, but we *mostly* have that and can tackle the rest on the fly. Meme magic/shitlording/trolling is definitely the biggest limiting factor in SN right now. Please scroll down and see my reply to Mr Cushman for elaboration.

    • The masses respond to memes. They don’t respond to intellectual arguments and brilliant writing. Memes are indispensable if we ever expect to win and Bob Whitaker makes the best ones.

  10. I think the Alt-Right has exaggerated its role in getting Trump elected. I think Trump’s win has a lot more to do with the Democrats running a horrible candidate and the GOP base being angry at TruCons.

    Bernie Sanders would have defeated Trump easily IMO.

    I won’t deny that the Alt-Right has had an impact, but it’s probably much less than what they like to believe. I mentioned “Alt-Right” to some of my family members who were huge Trump supporters from the beginning, and they had never heard of it.

    • I must agree with this opinion in re Trump’s election- (except for the Sanders idea) The so-called GOPe was ready to put up any number of losers for the Hildabeast to be enthroned as the first wimminz pres. The sheer madness of millions willing to vote for that demon- ! If not for the anger, the poor economy, etc…. Trump was on the road from that first interview with Megyn when he told her the nation didn’t have time for the PC nonsense. The alt-right benefited enormously from Cankles calling it out as she started to realize she was losing… whoever advised her was truly stupid. It is important to hold onto the publicity without going full fashy…. even if we want to. The JQ is still “untouchable”… DJT is the “best friend evah” for our jewish friends. ONE small step for mankind… before we reach for the stars.

  11. Revelation 16:13

    And I saw three
    unclean spirits like frogs
    come out of the mouth of the dragon,
    and out of
    the mouth of the beast,
    and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


    For they are the spirits of devils,
    working miracles,
    which go forth unto
    the kings of the earth
    and of the whole world,
    to gather them to the battle
    of that great day
    of God Almighty.

  12. Our entire race is under genocidal attack. Our enemies are no respecters of certain groups of Whites over other groups. They want us all gone. Let’s make friends and allies wherever we can find them. It’s possible that future White homeland(s) may not even be in North America. What becomes of Southern Nationalism then?

  13. I don’t see this as being a monolithic movement at all, but I think it needs to include everybody who believes in White Nationalism. Race is the key factor here. That’s where I’m at, I have little liking for this sort of Ronald Reagan stuff that Trump seems to want to bring back, tax cuts for out of touch rich, increase military spending, there’s no climate change; which is right out of Exon Mobile’s handbook.

  14. Interesting discussion here. For all of the younger members in this movement, be forewarned, you have gained the spotlight , and now the age old masters of dissension are going to work. Be wary of those who are offered the glory of this spotlight, because from there you will be manipulated. Don’t turn against one another, but hold to the concept of the spear point. Each side of the device has the same goal. We work to get the point through the target.

    The problem now facing alt-fight is the same old temptation of movements, the glory offered by talking to “their” media. They are in the “break the movement apart” phase now. Alt-Old and Alt-New have the same goal and don’t forget it.

  15. @Mr. Griffin…

    A few points …

    #1. I thought this was a very well written ‘reply’, though, I am sorry you were feeling in such a way as to be compelled to do so.

    #2. I think Dr. Hill is wise to point out that the ‘Alt-right’ is NOT founded on good ground, at least as far as The South is concerned, because it is secularized.

    That said, I can understand your discomfort with a Chryst centrick orientation, as you are not, as of yet, that way, which, to an extent, highlights what I have always felt about you – that you are not quite a Traditional Southerner, but, really more of a highly iconoclastick and abstract modern Southern thinker who, in recent years, has found himself sailing somewhat along the lines of The League.

    I have always felt that The League is the Southern intellectual man’s mid-20th century Klan, transposed lovingly into modernity, while you, though you would not appreciate the title, are far closer to a National Socialist – like Miss Denise or Mr. Jenkins.

    Say what you will, but, National Socialism is remarkably UNSouthern, even if members of the those two disparate cultures can, at this time in history, feel some sympathy for one another.

    #3. More than a few people contributed very interesting comments, here, though, I really cannot understand why we would discuss this in cyber space – particularly tacticks.


    I hope there is going to be room for us all, and that we can, most of the time work with each other, because so many tasks need to be done, it’s going to take all hands on deck.

    We need people ‘on the margins’ (flanks) and we need people in the centre of the process; a cultural war which embraces every aspect of our society- from race state, class, and faith to personal subculture, style, and age.

    I think that The New England Government has done a formidably good job at shadowing and nurturing societal political tendencies which strengthen it’s hand, and they have done this by using the coalition.

    I once said to you that I felt your greatest weakness was your disinclination to be secure in the middle of people, and to make friends.

    For when I said that, I don’t take it back, BUT, for 2017, I do.

    From my distant perspective, you have become profoundly more gracious, self-secure, and willing to see past personal differences to find what can be positively built from friendships, or alliances, if that were a better semantick.

    I believe that the greatest solution to many of the problems that need to be addresst is States’ Rights – whether that comes from Scalia-like jurisprudence, or secession, the latter being more preferable from my point of view, though, at this time, impossible – owing to the very docile and self-preoccupied state of the general Southern populace.

    I hope you will stick with The League, and not bolt just because you have some differences, which, in the end, must always exist between folks – even with family, as surely you must know, know that you are a happily married daddy.

    All the best to you and yours, Sir.

      • Dear Mark,
        In an effort to preserve all the traits of traditional North Carolina culture, within the context of my individual personality, I make it a point to use standard mid 18th century British spelling and punctuation; and, in some cases, I will even employ anachronisms dating back to Chaucerian times.

        By the way, I remember you from SNN – though, during those days I wrote under the name Nikolai Leskov – the late Victorian Russian novelist who was a champion of reactionary Russian Orthodox values, in particular, The Old-Believers.

        Thank you for the question. I hope you and yours are well.

        • Thank you for the explanation. Yes sir, I remember you from SNN. You are a very informative individual and I will look forward to reading your posts. -Mark

          • Thank you so much, Mr. Saint.

            I remember you, too.

            In my eyes, at the time, you stood out for your ability to maintain very closed and firm values, yet, a very flexible and expansive mind that could grasp what those values were outside of the conventional settings,

            Also, your friendliness, respect, and manners, to all, declared you.

            If you want to join some of us – Secessionists, Klansmen, Christian/Separatists, and National Socialists who are incompatible with the censorship at Facebook, please come to the English language Russian owned VK…

            Below is my page – there I going by the name – Ivan Turgenev


            The very best to you and yours!

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