Killstream: Secession Debate

Editor’s Note: I will share my thoughts as I listen to the two hour replay of the show. I was only able to catch a portion of it this weekend.

1:30: At the outset of this debate, I would like to note that “secession” is a constitutional theory which holds that the people of the states are sovereign and have the absolute right to unilaterally alter or abolish their government in a state convention. The states created the Union and separately ratified the Constitution which delegated powers to Congress. Before the War Between the States, Americans were citizens of their states and only by extension were citizens of the United States. The ultimate tribunal in our system of government is the people of a state acting in their sovereign capacity assembled in a state convention such as those that ratified the Constitution, not any office of the federal government. The same power that was exercised to join the Union through consent can be exercised to leave it.

Such was the American theory of government. It was laid out in the Declaration of Independence. The sovereign people have a right of last resort to revolt against their government. They didn’t need the permission of King George III or the British Parliament to do so. The Federalist Party spent decades trying to walk that back. It was ultimately Lincoln who did so and called it a “new birth of freedom” in the Gettysburg Address which ushered in the new era of centralized and consolidated government and national citizenship in which states are subordinated to the federal government.

I stress this because it is important to emphasize that “secession” isn’t necessary to experience severe political instability and civil conflict. Most civil wars in the world don’t involve secession. In the United States, secession was preceded by the collapse of the national Democratic Party.

7:18: Scott Greer singles out the skull mask accelerationist crowd which is a miniscule group which isn’t at all representative of the secessionist sentiment that is brewing in the country. In reality, it is MAGA or Trump supporters who have been warming up to the idea. Most of these people likely voted for Trump once or twice or have been apathetic in the past. They have soured on mainstream politics.

8:45: It is true that feds infiltrate and subvert “far right” groups, but anyone who has been around for any length of time can tell you this has been going on for decades. The police state has also been unleashed on leftwing groups in the past like the Black Panthers. The “intelligence community” has recently gone far beyond that though to subverting an elected president. The groups which the feds infiltrated on January 6th like the Proud Boys, Threepers and Oathkeepers aren’t even secessionist groups.

10:45: In his list of honeytraps, Scott strangely has nothing to say about the “Stop the Steal” rallies that he supported. Before the Capitol Siege, Nick Fuentes and the Groypers were flying all over the country and drumming up support for these rallies. The event that got hundreds of people arrested was a Trump rally in the U.S. Capitol. Trump era influencers like Owen Shroyer of Infowars and Brandon Straka of Gays for Trump and Baked Alaska were arrested. The smaller rallies that Nick and Scott were holding around the country and which Ali Alexander was organized culminated in the Capitol Siege.

11:08: Wasn’t it Alex Jones who was screaming “1776 Will Commence Again” at the top of his lungs? Clearly, the line between participating in mainstream politics and revolutionary rhetoric, conspiracy theories and violence is blurry in Scott’s own faction. Nick, of course, applauded the Capitol Siege and said that it was epic that Trump supporters were laying siege to Congress. What happened to Pat Casey?

11:50: Ramzpaul opens with calling Thomas Jefferson a wignat.

13:12: Ramzpaul is correct in pointing out the options here: go postal, knuckle under and submit, organize outside the system, vote for an establishment politician and ratify the regime or vote for a populist candidate. The “intelligence community” is just going to subvert anyone who does get elected like Trump who doesn’t have the support of the establishment.

16:42: Ramzpaul is correct that anyone who tries to organize outside the system will be infiltrated by the “intelligence community,” but that is because the “mainstream” which is controlled by the “intelligence community” and the media is already so fake and gay and rigged. The difference here is between spaces which are totally controlled and managed to stifle dissent and ensure the status quo continues and spaces which are uncontrolled and full of problematic people and thus have to be subverted.

17:00: Everyone agrees that the “intelligence community” tries to disrupt dissident groups.

21:13: Scott is correct that the GOP leadership is worthless, but isn’t that the whole point? Nothing can be expected from these people. The policy agenda is purchased by donors and lobbyists. Even Donald Trump sold out his own followers and grifts off them. As those people become disillusioned with mainstream politics, secession and “civil war talk” gains greater traction.

21:46: In the USSR and Eastern Bloc, dissidents were also paralyzed with fear of the “intelligence community,” losing their jobs, getting snitched on by friends and family, being labeled “anti-Soviet” which was a mental illness and being put on a list.

22:27: Scott’s solution actually is to keep voting and doing nothing as the “intelligence community” launches a “domestic war on terror” and rolls back the boundaries of permissible dissent to the point where every Trump supporter in the country is basically a “white supremacist.” The protest that went so horribly wrong on January 6th was a Trump rally.

23:00: As we just saw with the 2022 NDAA, House Republicans voted to entrench CRT and draft women into the military. CRT is becoming more institutionalized, not less. Every few years the GOP comes up with a new variation of this scam. What happened to the anti-sharia movement?

24:00: Once again, I agree with Scott that Republican politicians serve the interests of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. I agree that they are controlled by lobbyists and wealthy donors. I agree that their strategy is to harness resentment and grift off endless rounds of backlash politics. This is Donald Trump’s aim. DONATE NOW and join the Diamond Club to save your family from Antifa. Why then should anyone who believes this and sees through this scam go out and vote for them?

25:53: Scott describes the flaws of a centralized and consolidated government. It is true that states and local governments are now nothing more than administrative units of the federal government. Southern states are notorious for prostrating themselves at the feet of corporations and essentially bribing them to spur economic development. We do this while sanctimoniously condemning “socialism.”

27:57: Scott is exaggerating the lack of geographic sorting. The intense partisan divide is rural vs. urban these days with the suburbs being the primary battleground. It is a cultural rift that is centered on modernism which has been opening up since the 1920s. Americans are becoming a lot better at sorting themselves into homogeneous communities. There are fewer and fewer swing congressional districts.

32:24: Ramzpaul is underplaying his argument here. Nothing is holding this country together except inertia. The traditional pillars of American national identity and social cohesion – race, culture and religion – were jettisoned a long time ago in favor of pure ideology. It was assumed at the time by confident mid-twentieth century liberals that ideology would be sufficient to hold the country together. The American Creed isn’t holding this country together. Not even shopping is a unifying thread these days.

41:42: Does anyone remember forty years ago when the practical thing to do was to vote Republican to “Take Back America”? How about twenty years ago? How about ten years ago? How about five years ago? This assessment never seems to change even though things only continue to get worse.

42:26: We just lived through four years of “Taking Back America” and have emerged on the other side of it. How did that work out?

42:43: The Virginia GOP had nothing to say about the desecration of the Robert E. Lee monument. The big issue in the Virginia governor’s race is the state grocery tax.

45:19: What is the track record the world’s most powerful empires? In the last century, the British Empire, French Empire, Soviet Empire, German Empire, Dutch Empire, Portuguese Empire, Spanish Empire, Japanese Empire and the Ottoman Empire all fell.

45:34: The Roman Empire endured for as long as it did in part because news traveled so much slower in Antiquity than it does today.

46:16: The George Floyd riots are a symptom of mounting political instability.

47:50: It is a myth that comfort and prosperity is a vaccine against political instability and civil conflict. America had the highest standing of living in the world at the time of the American Revolution and the War Between the States. Both conflicts were driven by fanaticism and conspiracy theories. The Great Depression was also a turning point in the sense that social capital and social stability reversed and began to recover and go up in a time of dire poverty.

Killstream:

About Hunter Wallace 11875 Articles
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent

34 Comments

  1. The South was 160 years ahead of their time when it came to succeeding the corrupt
    union. Lincoln was the architect of the demise of the South and the US as a whole. The jews just finished the job.

      • It’s like these two debaters just figured things out, that we already knew, so they think they are informing us.
        Ramzpaul has the nerve to call Jefferson “a wignat”. Years ago, he told White Nationalists to “f off” on a Youtube. He fails to see that the only way we can truly survive is in a white country. But then he once advocated dating outside his race. I don’t know why people listen to guys like this. They “speak” at Amren “conferences” and it’s just a hobby to them. They aren’t pro-white. They aren’t “leaders”, and they don’t know more than we do. It’s like we know things for years, and suddenly, they arrive, and try to tell us what’s going on.

        Just entertainers, trying to make a buck.

    • Not exactly a braintrust. Things are currently set up in a way that if you didnt have a Youtube channel speaking about SJWs prior to 2018 or dont know how to edit videos, you will not be entering the debate. The fact is from what I see from the “Killstream”, a fat drunkard simpleton seeking “superchats” and his crew of just total morons like Andy Warski and Baked something something. Or watered down safe gatekeepers like Jason Kohen or the anorexic Satanist grifter styx666spellspoof, there isnt a lot to offer.

      The Ramsey guy seems well intentioned but isnt as you said a great thinker and speaker not mention he lacks the persona to be any kind of charismatic leader. Things are bad in terms of having a legal and peaceful position of advocacy with fellow adults not using frog avatars and screaming slurs. This is why I admire Brad so much. There is no doubt he is genuine and sincere. He isnt raising money for his “political party” which openly will win over Normies by claiming to be National Socialists and basing their platform directly out of 1934. The ultimate honeypot .

      Brad has been doing this for a decade and keeps things professional. He is deplatformed from all monetary means and keeps putting in all this work. That is a man you know you can trust unlike most of this lot

    • Yeah I wasn’t impressed either. IQ is a very jewy concept. Women and men have similar IQ’s for example. Anyone that thinks men and women have anywhere near the same spatial and mechanical ability are probably already on their 4th “booster shot.

      • The Bell Curve is real, and you can see it in daily life. Most people fit in the middle and the lower and higher IQs are at the ends.
        Not all men are smarter than all women. Gender is just a biological difference for procreation of the species.

  2. After listening I’d guess that Hispanics in the southwest will agitate for secession. That’s the only scenario that could lead to a real crack up of the system. Mexicans in America doing the job that whites won’t do. Greer felt a little evasive. Paul sounded old enough to know he won’t have to deal with it anyway.

    • It seems anyone who doesn’t have to worry about having or losing a job, considers themselves to be “a leader” in the “white movement”. But I bet there’s a lot better suited people, who can’t sacrifice their jobs. If anyone comes along who is worthy, it won’t be some boomer, with the “well, I won’t be around then!” attitude.

  3. The larger perspective is, they have been flooding us for 20 years now with Central Americans and Carib joggers. And the reason is, in their plan The North American Union includes Central America and the Caribeean Islands.

    Small minds, like those two yapping dogs, have no idea what is going on. We are halfway into the New Babel, the first attempt since Nimrod to construct a one world government and religion.

    So Trump is attending sessions on Chrislam, because he is one of them. And so they are destroying the dollar. And so they are destroying American democracy. And The Great Replacement.

    At some point, they will come out with it. The great merger, the Great Reset, The North American Union. The North Pole to the Canal, all one. And the digital currency, The Amero.

    The CIAs first White Paper on Cryptocurrency was in 1996. No, some nonexistent Jap did not start Bitcoin.

    The New Babel will collapse, perhaps any time, in a war. The first Babel was followed by triballization .

    I expect the same pattern to emerge after the Jews fail with this Babel. The Jews are children of Nimrod, children of Babylon. Judaism was born in Babylon, during the exile.

    You cannot just see the trees You also have to see the forest. The forest is the New World Order, the move toward a One World Government, based in Jerusalem, and controlled by The Synagogue of Satan.

    The USA is about gone. I think everyone sees that. It just had to be. A nation founded on the premise that it shall have no religion lacks a good foundation. As the Lord Jesus said, without a good foundation the building collapses. We see it happening.

    Christendom. A renewed Christendom should be our goal. A new tribal/feudal order, highly decentralized and based on clans and tribes.

    • Good post. Remember when the Mexican President (I think it was Vicente Fox) told the US to get rid of its Southern border, and George W. Bush went running down there to talk to him?
      I’ve noticed this too, about the NAU. The open border is just part of it. The concept of anyone being an immigrant here, is too.
      There’s whole towns in Central Am that are empty, as they came up here. The whole Honduran caravan got in, despite the fake resistance by Trump. Obviously planned. They want the Americas from Hudson Bay to the Tierra del Fuego to be inhabited by “Native Americans”, because that’s essentially what all of these brown people are, really. The Spanish haven’t been mating with them for the past centuries over and over.
      It seems odd, that anyone would prefer primitive minds over ones that build first world nations. While the Indians were building caves in sides of mountains and figuring out how to make pottery, the Europeans were building the Notre Dame Cathedral. Yet, most whites are captivated by the Indians instead of the Europeans.

  4. There’s not going to be a civil war. You have to have two sides for a war.

    Right now there is only the regime, comprised of the political parties, and the governed, who pretty much hate the regime for various reasons all of which are more or less legitimate. But those people have no representation and Increasingly have no franchise in the system being managed by the regime.

    If we had a God Emperor of Man rise suddenly from nowhere to topple the current regime then we could have a civil war.

    What we might have is riots and mass unrest, but thats not a civil war and won’t threaten the regime in any case.

    What we have now, many societies of the past have had. Its just a good old fashioned oligarchy, which increasingly is resented because its out of touch with the governed.

    We should resist the temptation to see ourselves as anything other than basic bitch vanilla and mundane unwashed masses. Cause thats what we are. Our power is in our commonality. I for one have no issue with being vanilla or mundane. My family have always been poor AF, unremarkable working class types.

    The good thing about being a common peasant, is that nobody expects anything from you besides working and keeping your head down, with a certain amount of bitching about it, which as a Scots-Irish I’m always a big fan of.

    I haven’t seen a God Emperor type yet, so I’m not gonna stick my neck out.

    Its easier to just wait for the technocrats and intellectuals to make mistakes, as in their infinite arrogance they always do. Eventually they will let the thing fall apart, and we can just keep on doing what we were doing and start building something else.

    The salt of the Earth is always needed eventually. Intellectuals generally aren’t. You really only need the exceptional ones once in a while. The rest are there to be made fun of and suck off the surplus resources of a society thats strong enough to carry them as baggage.

  5. Most academic Civil War historians are not biased, they are corrupted. Unfortunately, corrupted is the right word. They became corrupted when they turned into social activists instead of truth-seeking historians. It left them invested in a social movement that demands a fixed interpretation of the War. One that demonizes Confederates and demands the removal, destruction and vandalization of their statues. Such historians cannot change that opinion without betraying their political movement.

    Consequently, they put their academic effort into buttressing their fixed opinions to the Nth degree. They give us character assassinations of honorable men like Robert E. Lee whom they accuse of whipping slaves, resisting reunification, and being an overrated commander. They will no longer publish books and papers that question their viewpoint. To do so might reveal that they made an irrevocable mistake when they failed to defend Confederate monuments. Their own self-interest serves to keep their opinions unmovable and to censor anything to the contrary. The academic press will only publish books and papers that support their corrupted conclusions.

    According to a 2016 article about the political affiliations of college faculty members for the “Econ Journal Watch,” Democrats outnumbered Republicans by a 12-to-1 margin. The situation in the history departments was even worse because the Democrat-to-Republican ratio was 34-to-1, which made it the most lopsided distribution of the seven academic disciplines surveyed. Given the maxim: “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely,” it should not be surprising that academic bias has evolved into corruption…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENFxZNrSqKI

    Note:

    political affiliations of college faculty members: 12-to-1 Democrats to Republicans

    pol. aff. of college fac. in history departments: 34-to-1 Democrats to Republicans

    The sad thing is that even if Republicans were equally represented in college faculty members, the South would still be unfairly demonized.

    The South needs better representation in the USA or else secede and write the true history and do away with these anti-White, anti-South Yankee/Communist lies that paints the South as a nation of sinners/criminals when both secession and slavery were not prohibited in the Constitution and both secession and slavery are not prohibited in the Holy Bible.

    The South was Right and deserves its independence to govern and protect its people from its wicked enemies such as these slanderers on the Left.

    May God Save the South!

  6. Greer and Fuentes are no different than Charlie Kirk, save for Kirk getting the official stamp of approval and paycheck. Greer and Fuentes simply set their nets further away from the mainstream to usher the edgier fish into the GOP. Either way, it’s the same. They steal our talking points, tell us what we want to hear, get the votes, and then govern like the same old neo-cons. Every single time.

    Greer and Fuentes, and any GOP hack, must be rhetorically attacked relentlessly until them and the GOP are no longer considered an option for a White advocate.

  7. Charlie Kirk has one big difference, his head is three sizes too big, check it out. Maybe it’s because he has been exercising that big brain of his to think of more ways to grift like his sudden conversion to the race replacement theory instead of Democrats are the real Racists. Big Head Charlie has one overriding interest; doing what’s best for Big Head Charlie.

    BTW, if Democrats were the ‘real’ racists there would be lots of support for them. They would win in a landslide with an agenda of stopping then reversing immigration, a concertina wire fence on the southern border, ending the so-called “Civil Rights” agenda from the 1960’s etc. The Democrats have endorsed that agenda, the whole nine yards with the scumbag Republicans right behind them shouting: “Democrats are the real Racists”. Big Head Charlie is busy trying to thread the needle of changing political winds to keep his miserable grift alive else he might have to get a real job, something he is totally unsuited for.

  8. @17:47 Jews NEVER had a homeland, they have always been rootless, raceless and godless cosmopolitans. The present Zionist state in Palestine is not a homeland at all, it’s the headquarters for the jews’ global crime operation. And what about the Palestinians, Ramsey? They were living peacefully and quietly for centuries in Palestine before the Zionist terrorists showed up 100 years ago. If anyone is entitled to a state it’s them.

    • You need to visit Israel. The Jews do have a bond with the land, and of course Jerusalem and other ancient cities. Apart from the Bedouins, most Palestinians moved to Israel during the British Mandate. Only a minority go back more than a century or so. It’s worse than equating Mexican immigrants with the White Britannic settlers who built America.

      Even as second-class citizens the Palestinians are generally better off under Israeli rule than Arab rule. Just like the Blacks under Apartheid in SA. Or Mexicans in the USA.

  9. @Brad I am going to launch a radio program on telegram and it actually is going to be a pro-secession show that will also explain the evils of the American Empire. I concept I am getting more redpilled on daily as time goes on. Instead of Bill Richards, I am going to use my new title Mr. Confederate Man. I will talk about how mainstream politics is a disaster.

    Keep the content coming!

    (I posted this another time but it got hidden too deep in the comment section.)

  10. No real men are going to be following Scott Greer or Ramzpaul in taking on the Great Satan.

    Both are ‘Republicans for Life/Lesser of the Two Evils’ diehards.

    We are ‘Palestinians’.

    The sooner people get this through their heads the better.

    That’s the cold, hard reality.

    • How are the Palestinians doing these days? They’ve gone from defeat to defeat. We should think of ourselves more like the early Zionist settlers like Ben-Gurion, the Voortrekkers of South Africa, or our own pioneering ancestors.

  11. Scott Greer is an obvious huckster. He was pushing the fraud narrative and sent people to “stop the steal” a few months ago, yet he still advocates voting? If Democrats are frauding all of the elections, as he believes, then why does he advocate voting?

    At least Andrew Anglin has followed the fraud narrative to its logical conclusion and says that voting is pointless now because the Democrats can simply rig every election. Greer is just flat out saying “the elections are rigged so republicans can’t win, but vote anyway.” If he truly believed the fraud narrative, he would be saying that voting is useless like Anglin is.

    There’s really no better indication that Greer is just a part of the GOP extended influence network, most likely paid by Mercer or Thiel. His job is to round up disaffected Whites and convince them to vote R, so that his billionaire backers can score lucrative government contracts. Just like Cernovich, Agent Poso, VDare, Ricky Vaughn, the entire paleoconservative movement, and half of the White nationalist movement. The “dissident right” is mostly a big rent seeking scam.

    • Just like the Sean Hannity entertainers. It’s a way to make a buck out of desperate people. If they are STILL going to argue the voting thing, they haven’t learned anything then.

    • As annoying as Ramz can be sometimes Greer is simply a smug unlikeable shit. I went to high school with alot of pricks like him has a backstabbing nature to him. I swear he glows like a spook with the stop the steal grift at least Fuentes had a bit of charm Greer is all smile and no teeth

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