Response to Mark Vogl

Texas

Here’s the link to the SNN podcast with Mark Vogl about how the Southern movement ought to be based on anti-slavery and anti-racism.

My thoughts:

Slavery

1.) Slavery is the only reason a single African-American was ever brought to the South. That’s because slave labor was the only compelling argument that ever justified their presence here.

2.) The average single black woman in 2012 has a net worth of $5 dollars. That’s over a 99 percent depreciation since 1861.

3.) After 147 years of free society, the average negro household has a net worth of $2,100. That’s also over a 95 percent decline since 1861.

4.) With the stroke of a pen, the Emancipation Proclamation transformed America’s black population from an economic asset worth more than all of its banks, railroads, and factories combined into its single biggest economic albatross.

5.) The Mississippi Valley used to be one of the richest parts of America. Now it is the poorest region in America thanks to the abolition of slavery.

6.) Economically speaking, abolition was an unmitigated catastrophe that plunged the South – slaveholders and non-slaveholders alike – into generations of poverty that only began to subside almost a century later due to war related military spending.

7.) Seeing as how no one is calling for the restoration of slavery (2 percent of the population works in agriculture today, 98 percent of them are White), there is no rational argument for the continued presence (now that the slavery argument is gone) of such a large population of free negroes on our soil.

Ethnicity

1.) The idea that African-Americans and White Southerners are the same people is a romantic fantasy that has utterly no basis in fact.

56 percent of blacks live in the South. 46 percent of them live in the North and West. Blacks are a distinct ethnic group with a strong racial identity who nurse historical grievances against White Southerners.

2.) The Southern movement appeals exclusively to a handful of black eccentrics. There are outliers in every community. These people will always be regarded as race traitors in the black community.

3.) Blacks have made their hostile attitude toward the Confederacy plainly clear on numerous occasions.

4.) Paying H.K. Edgerton thousands of dollars to speak and sing at Southern heritage events accomplished nothing other than projecting an image of weakness that invited further aggression against Southern heritage.

5.) Fantasies of “Black Confederates” aside, the only people who have a stake in preserving Confederate heritage are the descendants of real Confederates, which is to say, the traditional White Anglo-Celtic population of the South.

6.) Far from being the same people, there is probably no greater example of racial and ethnic polarization in America than the gulf between White Southerners and African-Americans.

White Southerners have far more in common with White Northerners than with African-Americans. Even the Whites of Vermont are objectively less polarized against us!

7.) As a matter of fact, the only people who actually do take an interest in preserving Southern heritage are our own people – not counting the smattering of black eccentrics who are used as props to “prove” the South is not racist.

8.) Vogl is right that his generation has presided over the delegitimization of the South on the grounds of “anti-racism” and “anti-slavery” – and affirming those counterculture values will only further delegitimize the South and make the situation worse than it is now.

9.) African-Americans won’t even support the GOP. Isn’t it a stretch to say they would ever take an interest in Southern nationalism?

10.) White Southerners are a distinct European people of predominantly British descent – a sub-nation with a shared history, culture, and ancestry – and we will survive or perish on that basis.

Racism

1.) The term “racism” made its debut in America in an anti-fascist pamphlet in the 1930s. It was unknown to the ancients whether Christian or otherwise.

2.) “Racism” is a cockamamie sin created by European leftists. Other examples include homophobia, nativism, and sexism.

3.) Jesus himself said nothing about “racism.” The church fathers and the writers of the gospels said nothing about “racism.” The idea that racial prejudice is immoral isn’t found anywhere in the Bible or in the Christian tradition until well into the twentieth century.

4.) Needless to say, “anti-racism” couldn’t be more opposed to the traditions of the Old South which was violently opposed to social equality.

5.) Neither Greeks or Romans or their Medieval successors or even most modern philosophers up to the twentieth century associated “racism” with immorality.

6.) It is fairly clear that the crusade against “racism” has its origins among Christian heretics like the Quakers and Unitarians, radical leftwing Jewry, and international communism.

7.) The idea that “racism” is synonymous with immorality is about as old as Rock ‘n Roll. It was gaining currency around the time that Elvis was becoming popular.

8.) A much more plausible theory is that anti-racism is just another stupid fad like disco or hip hop propagated by television in twentieth century America.

9.) Racial differences exist. Blacks are not equal to Whites. Vogl would have us believe that God himself created the humans races, but considers it a “sin” to acknowledge their existence, even though the idea was unknown to Jesus and the church fathers.

10.) In the podcast, Vogl compares “racism” to adultery – hey, that’s revising the Ten Commandments. Are modern American Baby Boomers smarter than God?

11.) The people who want to participate in the struggle against “racism” can join the Democratic Party or send a contribution to the SPLC. Better yet, they can join the Republican Party and continue trying to “prove” they are not racist.

12.) There seems to be a pretty strong correlation between “anti-racism” and hating the South and hating Confederate heritage – so obviously, the South’s own advocates should embrace this cultural disease in the vain hope that it will cease to be a life threatening condition.

13.) Nasty old racists like Thomas Dixon, Margaret Mitchell, and Pitchfork Ben Tillman succeeded in preserving Confederate heritage whereas their anti-racist successors like Connie Chastain completely failed.

History

1.) The Confederacy really was based on the defense of slavery and white supremacy.

2.) The myth of Black Confederates has been debunked by historians and its perpetuation brings the Southern movement into disrepute.

3.) The U.S. Colored Troops were very real. What percentage of the black population fought for the Union?

4.) If slavery was so popular among blacks, why don’t they clamor for its restoration?

5.) Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stephens both described slavery as the immediate cause of disunion.

6.) The South was a “racist” society for three centuries. Is it really wise for defenders of the South to argue that our whole civilization was based on sin and immorality?

7.) Vogl is arguing from a position to the left of Andrew Johnson and even the most extreme scalawags.

Christianity

1.) Michael has already pointed out that Jesus and the church fathers were familiar with slavery and never felt compelled to condemn the institution.

2.) If anything is true, the Bible seems to affirm slavery. Much of Greco-Roman philosophy also explicitly affirms slavery. As far as our ancestors knew, slavery was morally legitimate

3.) “Racism” wasn’t an issue during Antiquity and the Middle Ages. The term “racism” didn’t exist until the twentieth century. The majority of White Americans didn’t consider “racism” or “racial prejudice” morally problematic until after the Second World War.

4.) As for Adam and Eve, I seem to recall the story of the “fall” being in there somewhere. It is central to the story.

5.) In the 1990s, the Southern Baptist Convention discovered that “racism” was a sin. If this was always so obvious, why did it take so long? Maybe Christians are just trying to accommodate fashionable secular trends in American popular culture.

Practical Politics

1.) The internet is a free market of opinion: the anti-racist faction of the Southern movement is free to make its case on the basis of anti-racism and anti-slavery, but the racialist and pro-slavery faction is also free to compete with that position – I predict the latter will win the contest in the long run.

2.) Why would anyone want to secede from the Union who supports BRA? Why go through all the trouble?

3.) The anti-racist faction of Southern nationalism pitched their tent a long time ago. What do they have to show for all those H.K. Edgerton rallies? What do they have to show for parading around with black eccentrics to “prove” they are not racists? What do they have to show for all their Black Confederate research?

4.) I suppose the idea was to gain “mainstream credibility” or “respectability” … well, if that was the case, then the “mainstream” must not have been paying attention because they are just as marginalized as ever before.

5.) The NAACP continues to attack them. The media hasn’t stopped attacking them. These “Southern heritage activists” continue to lose battles like Lexington or Caddo Parish in spite of their full throated embrace of BRA.

6.) According to the MSM, the Tea Party is racist. The Republican Party is racist. Rush Limbaugh is a racist. Guess what? If you disagree with progressives, then you will be labeled and smeared as a racist.

7.) Isn’t it strange how the Baby Boomers who embraced anti-racism are the only generation who has failed to preserve our heritage? Why should we follow their failed example?

8.) What this really all boils down to is pandering to fashionable nonsense about race (the SN equivalent of churches embracing gay marriage and female clergy) in the hope that it will marginally improve the receptivity of the public to Southern nationalism.

It doesn’t. The result is more like deafening silence because it offers no compelling reason for anyone to abandon the dominant, safe, race blind “mainstream” conservatism and voting for the GOP.

9.) Because of the errors of the previous generation who bet the house on “mainstream” conservatism, we have lost control of our culture. Accommodating the dominant American culture will expedite the demise of Southern culture.

10.) The public knows a weak horse when they see it. They will back the strong horse.

About Hunter Wallace 12379 Articles
Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Occidental Dissent

50 Comments

  1. joe your a hypocrite; you cry about the jews and other conspiracy theories more then anyone here.

    I know your goal is to drove Whites away from here, but it won’t work

  2. excuse me (a typo) : Like the smirk of a Missouri snake-oil salesman. “a” not “e”.
    Or, in the plural: ” Like the smirks of Missouri snake-oil salesmen”.
    Either way, the point remains clear. And legitimate.

  3. This type of dialogue is why WNsm is the only alternative to ‘tribal bickering’ like this; throwing out the old ‘banners’ of regionalism has done nothing but keep us all separated.

    It is the larger world-view, complete with the radical traditionalism incumbent within WNsm, which is propelling us forward – clowns like Vogle only make the case starker in relief, but your Response was excellent, Hunter.

    It is obvious that the spark of rage and insult heaped upon our opposition is reaching a healthy rhythm. Let us continue the fight with all our might.

  4. Suppose you owned +100 slaves each of whom would be worth over $100K in 2012 dollars. According to Joe, the planters were engaged in a conspiracy to destroy their own fortunes.

  5. A couple of months back, I had posted a comment of how Hitler had an agreement with German Jews to help move them to Israel – without mention it by name (i.e. Haavara Agreement).

    Joe “asked” the moderator to take it down because he felt it was a “conspiracy theory”. Jews routinely try to suppress discussion of the Haavara Agreement and the Madagascar Plan all the time – a classic tell tale sign.

  6. I mention the Jewish role in things, this is true. They have alot of power. They play a big role. To not mention the Jewish role in things would distort real history. In all fairness and for the sake of truth, though, I also mention how complicit whites (christian and otherwise) are to the “jew” agenda. Again, we whites, as a collective whole, are not as good, nor as innocent as so many feign. The world is the way it is because of everyone’s thinking and everyone’s behavior. If whites were as wonderful as many here claim, we never would have allowed ourselves to get into this mess in the very first place, but we did. There’re alot more non-jewish whites than jews– the jews are ascendant because the white race– collectively– wanted (wants) it that way ; Many through active support, and many through a sheepish, acquiescent way.
    Acting like sheep doesn’t cut-the-cake. Sheep get fleeced. Can’t complain about getting fleeced if one acts like a sheep.
    My comments are not directed to you @ Stonelifter, anyhow. I write for the cyberspace gallery — for all the readers. You’re not the only reader of “OD”. Couldn’t care less what you have to say Stonelifter : You’re too full of animosity and too gung-ho for internecine war to see clearly. If you, Stonelifter, had any real power in this country, a real say and real authority, you would have us white Americans engaging in outright war and slaughter of one another. You seem to be stuck in the year 1861. That’s not my problem.
    As all regular readers to “OD” know, I’m neither any kind of nazi, old-fashioned kind or “neo”. Neither am I a fascist of any kind. Neither am I a yankee puritan or any kind of do-gooder type out to change the world. Nor have I ever called anyone to hatred/violence for any group of people — jewish or anyone else, and certainly not hatred/violence towards fellow whites.
    What I have done, many times, is just warn my fellow white Americans to learn to protect themselves from black criminals– as well as criminals of all stripes– and occasionally remind my fellow Americans ( I include myself) of the importance of examing ourselves with the goal of amendment and betterment. One must be very thin-skinned to be upset about my commentary. My commentary — all my collective comments to “OD” taken as a whole over the past 2 months– are very balanced and fair-minded to all : Including my fellow white Americans.

  7. @Outlier
    If you’re going to make such accusations, the honorable thing to do is provide the readers with the name of the article under which my supposed request to the moderator to “silence” you is listed under. You shouldn’t have a problem with that as you seem/claim to have a good memory about it. Provide the name of the article. I am not the least bit reluctant to pursue the matter. We can discuss your accusation then. I am more than willing to discuss this so-called issue with you at length.

  8. Very interesting article about what’s going on in Syria and how the ( planned) turmoil there is tied into the decline of Uncle Sam’s empire ( and the destruction of the US overall). At “globalresearch” (.ca) / Article entitled:
    “Syria: Imperial Arrogance Spells Fatal Over-reach for the US and Western Allies”

  9. White people (here I’ll just say Anglo Saxons) could do with a whole lot less self examination. Introspection caused much of the problem. My instincts are pretty decent. I’ve got no problems with a Scottish nationalist or an IRA type. What I don’t like are very carefully masked agendas that claim to merely seek equality.

    The influx of German, Irish, Scandinavian etc etc immigrants to America 1848 onward created the demographic pressure that destroyed well settled Anglo Saxon heirarchic peoples. They demanded equality in combination with space cadet New Englanders and annihilated a people who were dealing with niggers on a realist level.

    The immigrant waves were simply looking for supremacy over an older group. The New Englanders appear to have believed their own bull. Joe just bugger off, you are clearly against everything the website supports.

  10. I agree with Joe that there was more to the War Between The States than met the eye. SOMEONE made a lot of money off of the deaths of close to a million White men. And it was odd how quickly the boot was taken off of the throat of the South after the Southern system went from the slave-coddling cradle-to-grave paternal system to the plantation version of the North’s cold, heartless profit-only system.

    Joe is absolutely right that very few Northerners wanted to fight a war to keep the South much less free the slaves. They loathed the abolitionists as trouble-makers. They were already being overwhelmed with waves of White immigrant labor depressing their standard of living. Why would they want to compete with Negro freedmen?

    Lincoln was pretty much on their shit list over his emancipation proclamation. See the riot scene in the movie, “Gangs of New York,” to see the reaction and made it clear to all the disgruntled Yankees drafted into a war they did not want to fight in the first place that the emancipated slaves would be shipped off to Africa.

    I imagine that a lot of Yankee yeoman thought that once the problem was sent back to Africa, more jobs would be open to all that cheap White European immigrant peasants pouring in and they would head south to fill them.

    If the South had offered migrant White farm workers the same deal; healthcare, food, housing, fresh air, sunshine, not to mention the pittance Frederick Douglass whined about, I imagine they’d have to turn away most of the applicants asking to work for them. There was a reason why there was less pressure placed on the South after they changed their system to a more industrial mode.

    I submit that the thirteenth and fourteenth amendment, in particular, were not passed just to punish the South. I imagine there was a strong financial incentive for the Northern industrial lobby to support having millions of Negro freed labor below the Mason-Dixon line. They had all the cheap White labor they wanted to themselves.

    If millions of Negro slaves had been shipped back to Africa after the War as Lincoln implicitly promised, well you can imagine how much more competitive the salaries offered would have to be to retain White employees.

    Follow. The. Money.

  11. Joe: We get “fail and balanced” via the piss stream media, Hollywood, the “education” system and everywhere else, and we all know what “fair and balanced” means. Hunter provides PRO-WHITE and PRO-SOUTHERN dialogue.
    Whites are criticized too much already. No race has done more inward looking than whites, no group has given up as much power without open warfare as white men have. We have every right to bitch AND MORE at the state of the nations our forefathers built FOR US.
    Unfortunatey, you are right in that the biggest enemy of whites are other whites, namely DWL’s. Without them, perhaps the situtaion Stonelifter describes would come about.

  12. Joe: I don’t give two hoots about Syria, as long as America stays the hell out of there. Ditto for Iran.

  13. Most of the Northern soldiers by far, were volunteers. Substantial numbers 1/2 Million were born in either Germany or Ireland. another 150,000 were black. So about 650,000 had thinly veiled ethnic or racial animus as motivation. The hatred they had for the Southerners was almost instinctive.

    The draft riots are overstated.

  14. Clytmnest…

    Yes we call them DWL!

    Disingenuous White Liberals. The Republican party is full of them, the Demicratic party is run by them.

  15. Rev. Fred Luter, the black pastor of a black Southern Baptist church in New Orleans who was just elected president of the SBC, wrote the declaration for the SBC in the 1990’s that proclaimed slavery to be a sin. The White diversity cultists in the SBC sure are a strange bunch. I hope all the authentic conservatives exit the denomination rapidly or sever ties with the SBC and form an Independent Baptist congregation.

  16. @ Joe

    If you’re going to make such accusations, the honorable thing to do is provide the readers with the name of the article under which my supposed request to the moderator to “silence” you is listed under.

    You were successful in having it taken down along with other comments. I forget the article and as the comments, including yours, were removed its impossible to track it down. Besides, you should remember as you’re the one the complained to the moderator.

    BTW, what are your thoughts on:

    1) the Holocaust: is it real or Allied propaganda;

    2) does the Haavara Agreement and Madagascar Plan undermine the Holocaust narrative;

    3) http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com; and

    4) Holocaust denial laws in the EU and Canada?

  17. @Wayne
    I never said, nor implied in any way, that I care more about Syria than the US. I never even said I care about Syria period. That’s beside the point. The Point Of The Article Is : Uncle Sam is very much involved in Syria. In fact, Uncle Sam ( along with Israel) is the Very One fomenting war. America is already in Syria, and America’s presence in Syria is one of the reasons for the decline of the US : That Is The Whole Point Of The Article.

  18. I’m opposed to uncle sam’s ( and israel’s ) presence in Syria. That’s why I mentioned the article at global research. By the way, I don’t really give a hoot about Syria, or Iran either, still the CIA and the Mossad are running undercover operations within Iran fomenting even more war. America is already in Syria and in Iran fomenting war.

  19. @Wayne
    I would imagine you’d be more upset about uncle sam’s presence in Syria fomenting war ( and contributing and leading to the decline of the US) — instead you’re upset about me posting some info on the situation of America being very much involved in Syria already. : Something you say you’re opposed to.

  20. Joe,

    no one here appears to support America on a fundamental level. Did you miss the “Stars and Bars” on the front page?

  21. @Outlier
    I don’t have a say — nor do I want to have a say — in how Occidental Dissent is run and managed. It would be very brazen and obnoxious of me to expect to have a say in how “OD” is managed. If Hunter Wallace truly did remove any one of your comments, it certainly wasn’t on my “request”, or my “order” ,or my “influence” over Occidental Dissent : I do not have the authority and the power over the webmaster to make him follow my “orders” . Again, I wouldn’t want that authority and power as it’s not my website ; Nor did I ever imply in any way ever , that I would ever want this kind of authority over the webmaster.
    As you already think that I’m somehow capable of deleting your comments, I think it best not to answer any of your questions concerning the Holocaust or anything else you may be curious about. I’m not at all inclined to discuss anything with you after your accusation. It’s not worth my time.
    By the way, it’s very scuzzy of you @ Outlier to drag Hunter Wallace into your web of accusations. It wasn’t enough for you to just accuse me — you had to drag the webmaster into it as well. Hunter Wallace has nothing to do with this contrived matter you conjured up.

  22. ” I think it best not to answer any of your questions concerning the Holocaust or anything else you may be curious about. ”

    Why?

  23. @John
    Go tell it to Wayne, he mentioned he “doesn’t want to see America in Syria”. He directed that comment to me– In reply, I mentioned that America is already in Syria. I don’t want to see America in Syria (or Iran for that matter), but it’s too late; Uncle Sam is very much involved in fomenting war throughout the Middle East. I stand opposed : Under the Stars-and Stripes or Under the Flag of the Confederacy , I stand opposed.
    You @ John are many times very quick to distort the subject matter being discussed in your attempts to deflect from the topic, and steer the conversation and devolve the discussion into ad-hominem remarks (However blatant at times, however subtle at other times) towards anyone who disagrees with you. It’s all ad-hominem remarks on your part and never any hard truth, or fair-minded debate. I don’t respect that at all.

  24. “Rev. Fred Luter, the black pastor of a black Southern Baptist church in New Orleans who was just elected president of the SBC, wrote the declaration for the SBC in the 1990?s that proclaimed slavery to be a sin. The White diversity cultists in the SBC sure are a strange bunch. I hope all the authentic conservatives exit the denomination rapidly or sever ties with the SBC and form an Independent Baptist congregation”

    SBCs sure are a pathetic bunch, eh?

    Sure, the Catholics got infested by jews and the entire edifice of Catholicism collapsed with Vatican II, but at least *our* enemy had to be surreptitious in order to gain power. Even today, judaized Vatican has to, at least, maintain a pretense of opposing Jewry.

    The SBCs simply ROLLED OVER to the blatant power grab by their black conquerors.

  25. Joe,

    you really needto redefine adhom. All you do is critique white Gentiles. It’s relentless. You Aldo set up vague conspiracy theories about Jews instead of paying attention to actual examples.

    You have no purpose here. Your aggression toward the southern ethne is pretty obvious and transparent.

  26. This one’s a piece of work.

    Clytemnestra says:

    SOMEONE made a lot of money off of the deaths of close to a million White men. And it was odd how quickly the boot was taken off of the throat of the South after the Southern system went from the slave-coddling cradle-to-grave paternal system to the plantation version of the North’s cold, heartless profit-only system.

    It wasn’t odd and it wasn’t quick. You need to study ‘reconstruction’ and its demise. And the figure was closer to half a million.

    Clytemnestra says:

    Joe is absolutely right that very few Northerners wanted to fight a war to keep the South much less free the slaves. They loathed the abolitionists as trouble-makers. They were already being overwhelmed with waves of White immigrant labor depressing their standard of living. Why would they want to compete with Negro freedmen?

    Northerners were as avid to fight the war as were Southerners. There was no less willingness on either side than there has been (to fight wars) ever since. The average northerner didn’t concern himself with the abolitionists, about whom he knew little. Almost all northerners signed up to fight because their president told them that their country had been attacked. Warmongering presidents don’t ever tell them the real reasons for war. Why indeed. Why integration and unlimited “immigration” in the 20th century? Why did Japan attack Hawaii? Hell, more people asked why of those things than about how freed negroes would affect them economically in 1861.

    Clytemnestra says:

    Lincoln was pretty much on their shit list over his emancipation proclamation. See the riot scene in the movie, “Gangs of New York,” to see the reaction and made it clear to all the disgruntled Yankees drafted into a war they did not want to fight in the first place that the emancipated slaves would be shipped off to Africa.

    This is so wrong-headed I don’t know what to do with it. I’ll try. First, Lincoln wasn’t on their shit list. He was their president and they obviously gave him the benefit of any doubt, though little existed. Having enlisted a couple of years before the EP, they weren’t about to reconsider what they had been dying for for so long. Any who did mull it over at all saw it as a war measure, as it was. And Lincoln or no one else told them the negroes would be sent to Africa. It was Southern leaders, before the war, who had warned of the consequences of freeing the slaves. But none of this was in the average northerner’s mind during the war.

    Clytemnestra says:

    I imagine that a lot of Yankee yeoman thought that once the problem was sent back to Africa, more jobs would be open to all that cheap White European immigrant peasants pouring in and they would head south to fill them.

    Again, fewer of them thought about these things than about the consequences of WWI, and they did NOT have back-to-Africa in their minds. Only in reflection, after the fact, does the average man wonder about these things, if at all. It’s easy for us to do now, so far into the future, but consider how long it took many people to question Bush’s WMD, and how anxious most were to attack Iraq.

    Clytemnestra says:

    If the South had offered migrant White farm workers the same deal; healthcare, food, housing, fresh air, sunshine, not to mention the pittance Frederick Douglass whined about, I imagine they’d have to turn away most of the applicants asking to work for them. There was a reason why there was less pressure placed on the South after they changed their system to a more industrial mode.

    You’re ignoring the history of how things developed in the new world. If, if, if. The end of ‘reconstruction’, if that’s the “pressure” you’re referring to, had nothing to do with industrialization, which didn’t occur on any large scale in the South until the 20th century.

    Clytemnestra says:

    I submit that the thirteenth and fourteenth amendment, in particular, were not passed just to punish the South. I imagine there was a strong financial incentive for the Northern industrial lobby to support having millions of Negro freed labor below the Mason-Dixon line. They had all the cheap White labor they wanted to themselves.

    Except that there was more of an incentive before the war. After the war, they owned the whole damned amalgamated UNION.

    Clytemnestra says:

    If millions of Negro slaves had been shipped back to Africa after the War as Lincoln implicitly promised,……….

    Errgghh! What implicit promise? None was given, none was implied, none was thought to be either given or implied.

  27. The South did infact fight a very protracted guerrilla war against reconstruction. The jackboot on the throat of the Southerner was heavy. Clytemnestra, is just giving a very general ill formed theory.

    The South infact was kicked around from that time to this. The boot has never stopped stamping.

  28. What we see here constantly are the fruits of the Yankee public miseducation system.
    The official narrative is swallowed whole and unquestioned.

    It’s really hard to see the eighty years of destitution for white Southerners that followed the war when your primary concern is the welfare of the negro savage.

    The actions of the Union League and the Freedman’s Bureau have been conveniently excised from mommy professor’s history book, so she thinks that the evil KKK stood in the way of Yankee efforts to ship the negroes back to Africa.

    Just like all the disgruntled Yankees who rioted in 1863 somehow reelected the “Great Emancipator” in 1864. Still wondering how that happened.

    If you point out the difficulty of squaring this particular circle, you are wrong.
    After all the North won. That makes them right.

    Deo Vindice

  29. And Judah Philip Benjamin and the owners of the large plantations ( over 1,000 slaves) were angels from heaven and didn’t have anything to do with fomenting the war of 1861. And Apuleius is Caesar : Son of the Gods. And John is the Reincarnation of Robert E Lee. I know the Southerners didn’t have anything to do with starting the war because Caesar Apuleius declares it to be so , plus , the official historian for the Southerners — Bill Yancey –just happens to leave out the fact that Benjamin Judah boy was a member of the Queen’s Council : In other words Benjamin was The Secretary of War and The Secretary of State ( he held both positions simultaneously) of The Confederacy while also in the employ of, working for, and recieving renumeration , from the Queen of England at the same time.
    I”d thought it would be instructive to the readers to mention this overlooked aspect of The Confederacy. There’s so many things historians must remember, sometimes they forget certain facts and leave things out of the story. And we all know that Caesars are very busy to remember everything as A Caesar has alot on his plate, so sometimes even Caesars leave things out of the story.
    Dus Nobis Haec Otia Fecit
    [ God has brought us to this repose]

  30. White nationalism will never work. We as a people have diametrically opposing views on what is good and right. yankees love big govt, small families, queers, foreigners, and lincoln while hating guns and our traditional ways. Here in the South we love guns and our old ways while hating big govt, fags, foreigners and lincoln. These things cannot be resolved in such a way that Southron people can be free to be Southron people

    John your post on 7 July @ 701pm about how White immigrants in 1848 upset the balance is…. wonderfully well stated

    Those who think few yankees wanted to fight are ignorant of what was going on and how many signed up to fight. There were drafts, but this was a time in history where such things were not enforceable. They could have moved one farm over to avoid the draft, or denied being “John Doe”. It also doesn’t take into account the vast stores of yankee editorials on the subject or the letters home from yankee troops. They were fired up to fight and ruin the South for a variety of reasons, not just ending slavery. They also wanted to punish the South for wanting to break the union over the new tariffs. The tariff would have been a huge hardship in the South and would gone to paying for internal structural improvements up north or paying off the debts from internal improvement in the north. Internal improvements that benefited only the north.

    I’ve not read much in the way of there being a plan or a promise to ship the negros back. Seems to me, yankees thought negros could be unleashed and then kept in the South, or the South would be given to the negros as reparations for slavery. This idea Lincoln conned yankees on this is bullshit. What little bit I know about negro relocation gives the strong impression it was done via charity groups and not govt action

    Another thing yankees never seem to include in their figuring is, lincoln wasn’t on the ballot in the South. His election was an acted of political force aimed right at the South.

  31. I had to reread this thread but Bill, way to kick that bastard in the teeth. Verbally that is

  32. Lincoln said througout the war he wanted to send the blacks back to africa. He very much left that impression with Northerners. And yes, there was great resistance in the North to the war. Many were thrown in prison for speaking up against the war. Many newspapers were shut down at the point of the bayonet. Constitutional rights were stomped on by Washington to keep the yankees inline. The immigrants were brought into the conflict Exactly because there was so much resistance to the war in the North [ I’m not trying to cover up what the yankees did to the south, alot of what the yankees did down south was horrible ] but still, the truth is always more nuanced and more involved than sweeping generalizations.

  33. I wouldn’t make much of the second party correspondence between Lincoln and Marx, either. Remember Washington and Paine. There was a time of statecraft when white leaders weren’t afraid to acknowledge or even associate with men of controversy in their time. This made leaders more well-rounded.

  34. lincoln is a proven liar on all fronts; why would anyone think he was serious about relocating negros?

  35. Joe said: “I would imagine you’d be more upset about uncle sam’s presence in Syria fomenting war ( and contributing and leading to the decline of the US) — instead you’re upset about me posting some info on the situation of America being very much involved in Syria already. : Something you say you’re opposed to.”
    Actually, Sparky, I already know about Uncle Sam’s tentacles. They are everywhere and beholden to Israel. You won’t surprise me with anything there so I haven’t the least interest in your boring article.

  36. @Stonelifter
    How you overlook every point. Unfortunately many believed Lincoln. Just like today many people still believe the politicians. It’s just human nature. Southerners believed Judah Philip Benjamin was a real Confederate when he was anything but. He wasn’t even a founding stock type. He was a jew– and a foreign born jew, too boot : Southerners ( many) believed that liar and the Northerners (many) believed the liar Lincoln. It’ just human nature sometimes to place too hope in the politicians. It transcends south/north issues.
    What about all the other points I make? You forgot to comment on the other points. You mention nothing about Judah Philip Benjamin.

  37. @Wayne
    I’m impressed that you have some knowledge. However, you weren’t at all clear about your knowledge when you first responded to my post that mentioned globalreserach.
    It’s great to have knowledge. It would behoove you to learn how to articulate your knowledge in a straight-forward and honest manner. Learn to debate like a gentleman. That’s your next challenge — if you’re up to it — now that you have some knowledge. You can call me “sparky” all you want. It’s to your discredit, not mine.

  38. I’ve not read very many of Judah Philip Benjamin contemporaries write ill of him. IIRC, Lee spoke very well of him. I’ll follow any link that proves his contemporaries thought poorly of him. There were a good many Southron Jews who fought for the South. Most of their descendants are embarrassed about it and we don’t need them here in Dixie

  39. I posted links the other day about Judah Benjamin. You were on the commentary thread.Why didn’t you hit the link I provided then? Google the information. It’s very easy to do. I’m not going back to find my post with the link. Nor am I going to go do the search for you. Overall, you have been nothing but downright rude to me since the very start. The other day you even wished that the mexicans here in California physically attack me. I don’t owe you a damn thing.
    I apologize to the other readers for this. I many times include links in my post. But I will not do so at Stonelifter’s request as he wished for me violence. Pretty severe violence no less.
    Google : ” Judah Philip Benjamin + whale.to ”
    That should get one who is interested in this subject on a good start.

  40. Joe said: “Learn to debate like a gentleman.” You mean like this:
    “…..poor poor us wittle christians, so good and innocent, the bad bad meany jooos are not nice to us. boo hoo hoo hoo. everyone should be nice to us because we believe in jesus and we’ve always paid lip service to him- at least when we weren’t killing one another down in civil wars– so the jooos and the darkies should be nice to us and not be meanies. boo hoo hoo hoo. i want my mammy. i want my mommy. i wanna watch the andy griffith show and leave it to beaver too. boo hoo hoo hoo……”?
    Please, you hypocrite!

  41. ohhh no I was mean to poor little anti White jew- joe; like a woman, child, yankee or jew it never views things in terms of its own actions

    mostly jew joe I skip your post; my horse shits out better and more intelligent things than you write

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