Jost on the Caste System

50 Comments

1. Note: Jost Turner’s material is being posted for archival purposes. The ideas in said essays do not necessarily reflect the views of the authors here.

2. Interesting, but I think we can do without the thralls or lowly Dasas. Anyway, I prefer Dumezil’s trifunctionalism (as it relates directly to the dialectic).

   Q. Why did the ancient Norse lack a priestly caste?
   A. They revolted against Kohn rule (history doesn’t repeat but it sure does rhyme!).

3. @2

   Jost Turner is no Dumezil, but his interpretation of the Rigsthula is thought-provoking and worthy of dissemination in my book.

   If you have not yet read it, I highly recommend the interview with Dumzeil in the first Tyr Journal, entitled “Priests, Warriors, and Cultivators.”

   The gornahoor site published this a couple months ago:

   Of the many would-be “saviours” of Western civilisation, there are precious few who know exactly what they are supposed to preserve. For example, many prefer the values of the Enlightenment and praise scientific discovery; while that may be, in a restricted sense, one of the flowers, it is hardly the root.

   To locate the roots, the first source would be the works of George Dumezil, who identified the common social and religious structures of Indo-European peoples from Vedic India to Ireland, and all points in-between. Even if you deny that this was the work of a particular race, it cannot be denied that it was the manifestation of a particular spirit.

   In “Sintesi di dottrina dell razza”, Julius Evola mentioned the qualities “characteristic of the great Aryan civilisations of the Orient, ancient Rome, up to the Roman-Germanic Middle Ages”. So to understand the roots of Western civilisation, it is necessary to return to those sources: the Vedic civilisation of India, the classical civilisations of Greece and Rome, and finally the Catholic Middle Ages as created by the Germanic and classical Roman currents.

   Let us not forget, there was no “Europe” until the Middle Ages. Ancient Rome was built around the Mediterranean and included what is now called the Near East and the Mahgreb. Savitri Devi in “Son of the Sun” writes:

   If we consider the Western world as a whole (Europe and its background), and not only the small portion of it which one generally has in mind when speaking of “the West”, then we have to include in it the countries of the Bible—Syria, Egypt, Arabia, Iraq—no less than Greece; for they are the geographical and cultural background of Christianity, the religion of Europe for centuries.

   After the Middle Ages, Western civilisation takes a different turn and, no longer nourished by its roots, its decline commenced.

   Source: http://www.gornahoor.net/?p=220

4. This essay, which you sent me several years ago, had a deep influence on my schooling in the realms of Ancient Indo-European history and spirituality. In a sense it was my introduction, as I knew very little about the caste systems of Aryan societies until reading it.

   More WNs certainly need to read it, as it will help to dispel many of the rumors and myths nourished by our comrades who consider atheism to be “the only religion for Aryans.”

   Excellent choice for a post.

5. “After the Middle Ages”, that is, when Western Civilization made its greatest mistake: letting the Jews out of their medieval ghettoes. The rest you know. Where Susan Sontag (Jewess) once slandered “the White Race as a cancer on humanity”, we can now say, with the confidance of experience, “the Jews are a cancer on Western Civilization”.

6. Are you familiar with Plato’s philosophy, Robert? Would you say there is any overlap with the Vedic belief system?

7. This is interesting stuff, and I used to wholeheartedly believe in it, but as of late, I’ve started to question the true provenance of that which we call “Aryan”. I used to think that the Hindutva nationalists of India who rejected the Aryan Invasion of India were just nationalist fringe cooks with bruised egos, but now I’m not so sure. It’s seems that while the linguists still hold to a central Asian or north Pontic provenance of Indo-European, archaeologists don’t seem to find persuasive evidence of an invading culture into India by horse nomads. A counter theory, the Out of India Theory (OIT), suggests that Indo-European originated with the darkies in Northwest India, and then spread north and west, acculturating the more primitive nomadic steppe peoples. This might not be that crazy an idea, when we consider that the older and more varied r1a haplogroups are now thought to be in India, not Europe.
   And then there’s the paleolithic continuity theory. The point is, it seems that the Kurgan Indo-European theory seems to get weaker, not stronger with newer findings.

   Here’s a page on this material:

   http://indo-european.eu/wiki/index.php/Out_of_India_theory

8. Guest Lurker,
   I believe the original Indus Valley Civilization was populated by unrelated Whites who spoke an Elamo-Dravidian language and only grew dark over time due to the steady introgression of negrito pygmies from the subcontinent’s rainforest refuges. Aryans invaded after India was already a mature and declining civilization, energizing things for a bit before themselves dissolving into the civilizational stew.

9. Not to get bogged down on highly speculative minutia, but some current linguists no longer believe that Elamite and Dravidian are actually related. Even if they were, I wouldn’t consider hither asiatic caucasoids as “White”. The substrate of modern Iran is Elamite, and look how “white” they are. As to Aryans invading later, that’s the crux of the issue- there’s a growing argument against it.

10. …archaeologists don’t seem to find persuasive evidence of an invading culture into India by horse nomads.

    Same claim we now hear regarding a Dorian invasion of the Greek peninsula. And there’s the latter-day thesis that the westward movement into Europe was merely agricultural.

    Which suggests, rather, that said nomads do not leave behind persuasive evidence of their passing, as they pass. Or that some convenient interpretations of evidence are being employed in this seemingly systematic campaign.

    To suggest that there was not an invading culture initiating the Hindu period is to allege the equivalent of the parthenogenic birth of a human individual. The science of political economy disallows it as other than a miracle.

11. A counter theory, the Out of India Theory (OIT), suggests that Indo-European (culture?) originated with the darkies in Northwest India, and then spread north and west, acculturating the more primitive nomadic steppe peoples.

    Who then invaded as did the Macedonian heirs of Classic Greek culture, thus initiating the Hellenistic period.

    Pleased explain where the problem lies. Are we arguing the race or the culture?

12. Re #10:

    That should be:

    “To suggest that there was not an *invasion* initiating the Hindu period…”

13. Guest Lurker,
    According to my model, Whiteness emerged independently in relatively unrelated populations. The Dravidians and Sumerians were all White (while being indigenous). at the dawn of civilization, the entirety of Eurasia and North Africa were White, with the exception of the more inhospitable refuges and the exceptional case of the Chinese basin.

    The bronzing of a civilization is a function of the length of time it has been civilized and its proximity to refuges from which laborers can be extracted. India’s civilization is incredibly old and was in very close proximity to very primitive rainforest pygmies. European civilization is relatively new and is ringed by a virtual fortress of natural barriers to the immigration of primitive laborers.

    It’s not that we Europeans are the only White people. It’s that we’re the only purely White people left standing. Whites are always endangered in the civilizational habitat because we’re selected by and for a martial lifestyle. The caste-specialized groups like Jews and Gypsies are the ones destined to win if we don’t figure out some way to defy this historical pattern.

14. The caste-specialized groups like Jews and Gypsies are the ones destined to win if we don’t figure out some way to defy this historical pattern.

    You mean like eugenetically?

15. “The bronzing of a civilization is a function of the length of time it has been civilized and its proximity to refuges from which laborers can be extracted.”

    Let’s do our own damn labor, then. Which, if we really were as perfect as some of us like to consider ourselves, we could have been doing all along.

16. Stronza,
    The problem with that is there’s a brief transitional period in which the laborers directed by Whites fuel explosive growth and progress. The pyramids stand as lasting testaments to the supernova intensity of a civilization exploiting alien laborers. During this explosive period, the unsustainable society can overwhelm all the ones pursuing sustainable strategies. On a smaller scale, you saw that with California’s recent flaring up and burning out. For a brief period, it was far more wealthy and powerful than the heartland, but is rapidly becoming a third world disaster area.

17. So, then, are you saying that we whites somehow HAD to choose between rapid growth & progress (by using nonwhite laborers) and supposedly undesirable stasis or at best slow progress? “Slow and steady wins the race” is an old saw and no truer words…

18. “Slow and steady wins the race” is an old saw and no truer words…”

    Which is the argument that is usually made by WN to trump northeast Asian intelligence- that they make slower progress than our alleged supernova-like creativity and advances. Maybe the East Asians will be the last man standing.

19. “The Dravidians and Sumerians were all White (while being indigenous). at the dawn of civilization, the entirety of Eurasia and North Africa were White, with the exception of the more inhospitable refuges and the exceptional case of the Chinese basin.”

    So you’re saying all the hither asiatic levantine types, like Armenoids and Arabs for example, are the result of white Europoids miscegenating with non-whites? I don’t understand.

20. “Pleased explain where the problem lies. Are we arguing the race or the culture?”

    NeoNietzsche, in post 7 I included a link which summarizes some of their arguments. As I understand it, they are arguing both- that there are no material remains of an invading foreign physical type, and that neither the material nor religious or literary evidence in the Rig Veda evidences a foreign provenance. For example, it had been argued that it was invading Aryans who introduced the horse and fire altars to North India, yet there are scholars who claim there is evidence for both of these in Harappan sites. Likewise, a critical reading of the Rig Veda, they say, does not describe any invading or foreign people, but describes the conditions and geography of Northwest India at the time. Here is another website of one of the main antagonists of the Aryan Invasion theory.

    http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/

21. Too smart by half, that’s us.

22. Guest Lurker,
    Martial selection, which selects for White people, was most intensive in the most fertile zones. These would be the major river valleys. Each of the major temperate river valleys corresponds with a specific language family and a specific genetic signature because before the civilizing process interrupted things, these each acted as fountainheads from which populations poured out and pillaged the descendants of the previous outpouring.

    Danube River – Old European – R1b
    Volga River – Aryan – R1a1
    Ob River – Finno-Ugric – N
    Nile River – Afro-Asiatic – J
    Indus River – Dravidian – H

    They were all White, with differences in appearance like the bulbous noses of the extinct Sumerian race, the hooked noses of the endangered Nilotic race, or the highly bridged straight noses of the Volgic race.

23. The early history of Armenia has been largely preserved for us by the Armenian historian Moses Khorenatsi (who flourished in the Eighth Century AD), in his work titled “History of the Armenians”.

    Moses (I, 10), informs us that Haik, the legendary founder and ancestor of the Armenian people, was grey-eyed. [Günther (1934) 221.]

    He goes on to note that the war-god of the pagan Armenians, Vahagn, was red-haired and red-bearded, like the Norse god Thor. [Miller (1998) 53.]

    He observed (I, 24), that during the historical period the warrior, King Dikran, who is better known by his Greek name, Tigranes the Great, was a blond-haired and blue-eyed man. [Günther (1934) 221; Sieglin (1935) 124.]

    Moses also stated (II, 63), that Eraniak, the famously beautiful daughter of Tigranes, was a blonde, like her father. [Sieglin (1935) 124.]

    Finally, Moses declared (II, 52), that Sempad, an Armenian prince of renown, was blond-haired. [Sieglin (1935) 124.]

    Sources:

    Günther, H. F. K. (1934) “Die nordische Rasse bei den Indogermanen Asiens” (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag).

    Miller, D. A. (1998) “On the Mythology of Indo-European Heroic Hair.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, XXVI, 41-60.

    Sieglin, W. (1935) “Die blonden Haare der indogermanischen Völker des Altertums” (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag).

24. Here is some interesting information about the Nordic race in Aryan India.

    “The two sections of the sacerdotal class, Brahmans by descent and Brahmans by adoption, were of different physical types. In the Rgveda (VII. 33. 1) the Vasisthas, who represent the first group, are described as ‘svityam,’ ‘white,’ while Kanva (X. 31. 11), representing the second group, is ‘svava’ or ‘krsna,’ ‘dark.’ In the Gopatha Brahmana (I. 1. 223) the Brahman’s colour is white (‘sukla’). The tradition of the existence of a group of Brahmans
    with white complexion and yellow hair survived down to the time of the grammarian Patanjali (about 150 B.C.) who writes in his Mahabhasya (on Panini V. 1. 115): ‘Penance, knowledge of the Veda, and birth make a Brahman. He who is without penance and knowledge of the Veda is a Brahman by birth only. White complexion, pure conduct, yellow or red hair, etc. are also characteristics that constitute Brahmanhood.’ The Brahman with white complexion and yellow hair seems so strange a being to Kaiyata, the scholar of Patanjali, that he assigns him to a previous cycle of existence. He writes, ‘White complexion, etc., were seen in Brahmans who flourished in a previous cycle of existence and whose descendants are rarely met with even now.'”

    Sources:

    [R. P. Chanda, “The Indo-Aryan Races: A Study of the Origin of Indo-Aryan People and Institutions, Part I.” (Rajshahi: Varendra Research Society, 1916), p. 24.]

    The “Boddhisattva Asvagosha” (A Life of the Buddha), the “Mahapadana Suttanta,” and the “Lakkhana Suttanta” (Dialogues of Buddha: Sacred Books of the Buddhists), all state that Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha), an Indian prince’s son, had “eyes the colour of blossoming flax.” The flowers of the
    flax plant are blue in colour.

    [H. F. K. Gunther, (V. Bird & R. Pearson, trans.), “The Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans.” (London: Clair Press, 1967), p. 32.]

25. The Prophet Muhammad (AD 570-632), the founder of the Islamic religion, was apparently fair-skinned; a freedman, by the name of Umar, described the Prophet thus:

    “his face was not fat nor rounded; it was white tinged with red”. [Guillaume (1987) 726.]

    Most authorities on the issue appear to agree that Muhammad was brunet, but Henric von Schwerin has stated that:

    “Red-hair is still honoured amongst Moslems as the Prophet Mohammed himself was reported to have red hair.” [von Schwerin (1960) 27.]

    During her lifetime Aisha, the Prophet’s beloved wife, gained the epithet humayra, a word which has been translated as “light,” “reddish,” or “fair,” but whose meaning can be most accurately rendered as “blonde.” [Baltzer (1934) 206; Lewis (1990) 36; Vollers (1910) 91.] Subsequently, she has become known to the Islamic peoples as “Aisha the Blonde.” [Günther (1930)
    168.]

    Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance – possibly in imitation and pursuance of a fair-haired, Nordic ideal. [Günther (1930) 163.]

    Caliph Ali (AD 656-661), a first cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, was also renowned for his blond hair, as were his descendants, who founded the Shi’ite branch of Islam. [Grant (1981) 84-85; Lewis (1990) 36.] However, it was bitterly resented by some Muslims, that the physical features which characterised a true descendant of Muhammad, were steadily being lost, due
    to admixture with darker races. Thus, as the Syrian poet Abu’l-Ala (AD 973-1057), remarked in a letter:

    “We often see a man of mark who has in his house women of high degree setting above them a girl in a striped gown purchased for a few coins and so we may see a man whose grandfather on the father’s side is a fair-haired descendant of Ali while his maternal grandfather is a black idolator.” [Lewis (1990) 89.]

    It would also appear that many of the numerous and diverse rulers of Moorish Spain, were racially Nordic; the Spanish historian Enrique Sordo, informs us that:

    “Most of the caliphs were fair or ginger-haired with blue eyes, which seems to show a preponderance of Berber or Germanic blood. As they were extremely proud of their origin, some of them dyed their hair black, as if to affirm their Arab descent.” [Sordo (1962) 24.]

    This trend towards blondism began with the very first independent Muslim ruler of the Iberian Peninsula. Abd al-Rahman I (AD 756-788), the founder of the Cordoban Emirate, was a Syrian from the Damascus region, and belonged to the imperial Umayyad family: he was a grandson of Caliph Hisham (AD 724-743). His mother was a Berber slave-girl, and his father was the Syrio-Arab Umayyad, Muawiya. He is said to have been a “colossal red-haired man”. [Grant (1981) 90; Sordo (1962) 23.]

    In 1232, Muhammad b. Yusuf b. Nasr from Banu ‘l-Ahmar, made himself the Sultan of the kingdom of Granada, a feat which he achieved by consolidating several Muslim petty kingdoms in southern Spain. Muhammad I was known as Ibn al Ahmar (son of the red), because of his red hair; he was the founder of the Nasrid dynasty, and ruled from 1232 to 1273. [Sordo (1962) 120; Vollers (1910) 87.]

    This trait appears to have continued, even into later periods. Abu
    ‘l-Hadjdjadj Yusuf I, the Nasrid Sultan of Granada from 1333-1354, has been described in the following terms:

    “He was of noble bearing and was endowed with extraordinary physical strength and good looks. His skin was too pale however, and, according to Arab historians, he increased his grave and majestic appearance by growing a beard which he dyed very black.” [Sordo (1962) 120-121.]

    Ultimately, Moorish Spain ended as it had begun: with a fair-haired ruler. Muhammad XII [Boabdil], was the last Sultan of Granada (AD 1482-1483, 1487-1492); Enrique Sordo depicts him thus:

    “Among the paintings in the gallery of the Generalife Palace hangs Boabdil’s portrait. In it his countenance is kindly, handsome and melancholy, his complexion rubicund and his hair blond.” [Sordo (1962) 124.]

    Islamic Egypt also possessed several Nordic rulers of significance. Al-Nasir Yusuf Salah al-Din [Saladin] (AD 1171-1193), founded the Ayyubid Dynasty (AD 1171-1254), when he was invested with the governance of Egypt and Syria. He was of Kurdish ancestry, and his contemporaries stated that he was tall, handsome, fair-skinned and light-eyed. [Fossier (1968) 315; Günther (1927) 151; Weyl (1967) 41.] Robert Gayre of Gayre informs us that:

    “Salah-ed-din and many of his followers had Kurdish and northern blood which accounted for their lighter colouring…” [Gayre of Gayre (1972) 97.]

    Al-Nasir al-Hasan, who was Sultan from 1347-1351, and then from 1354-1361, was one of the last rulers of the Turkic Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, which ruled Egypt from 1250-1390. According to the Medieval chronicalist Ibn Iyas, he had a blond beard and dull-blue eyes. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

    Sultan Al-Nasir Faraj (AD 1399-1412), was the son of Al-Zahir Barquq [Burji] (AD 1382-1389, 1390-1399), the first of the Burji Mamluk rulers; the Dynasty reigned from 1390 to 1517, and was mostly of Circassian descent. Ibn Iyas stated that he was blond-bearded; he also noted that both Al-Nasir al-Hasan and Al-Nasir Faraj, possessed what he described as “Arab faces,” which meant that they had long, noble countenances. [Baltzer (1934) 210; Vollers (1910) 95.]

    Ibn Iyas also observed that Sultan Al-Mansur Qalaun (AD 1279-1290), of the Bahri Mamluk Dynasty, had fair hair and a fair complexion. [Vollers (1910) 91.]

    During the period of Ottoman rule, Nordic racial elements once again achieved a position of ascendency in the Islamic world. Orhan (AD 1324-1362), the son of Osman I (AD 1280-1324), who was the founder of Ottoman rule in Anatolia, was the first of that dynasty to use the title “Sultan.” He is described as being very tall, broad-shouldered, fair-skinned, light-eyed and blond-haired. The German physical anthropologist Professor Hans F. K. Günther, considers him to have been predominantly Nordic in type. [Günther (1934) 189-190.]

    Mehmed II (AD 1451-1481), known as the Conqueror, was the Ottoman Sultan that ended the Byzantine Empire, and who occupied the city of Constantinople, converting it into Istanbul. A contemporary miniature of Mehmed, painted by the artist Sinan Bey, depicts him as a light-skinned, light-haired and light-eyed man. [Reader’s Digest Association (1974) 127.]

    Ottoman rule over North Africa – Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis – was extended and consolidated by the brothers Aruj and Kheir-ed-Din Barbarossa. The name Barbarossa stems from the Italian word for “Redbeard,” and the brothers acquired this surname because of their ginger hair. [Baltzer (1934) 211.] Kheir-ed-Din (d. 1546), was appointed Regent of Algiers in 1530, and his reign was largely a success. [Mitchell (1976) 137.] Hans F. K. Günther refers to him as:

    “the Viking-like Khair-ed-din Barbarossa, the founder of Osman [Ottoman] rule in North Africa, the red-bearded son of a Greek from Lesbos.” [Günther (1927) 173.]

    The link given below, leads to a web page which contains depictions of every one of the Ottoman Sultans. It is interesting to observe how many have reddish hair, light eyes, or a fair complexion.

    http://almashriq.hiof.no/turkey/900/950/956/sultans/thumbnails.html

    Finally, we may note that the Algerian national hero Emir Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza’iri (AD 1807-1883), who fought the French attempts to occupy his country in the 1830s and 1840s, appears to have been blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129-130.]

    SOURCES:

    Baltzer, H. (1934) Rasse und Kultur: Ein Gang durch die Weltgeschichte (Weimar: Alexander Duncker Verlag).

    Dunan, M & J. Bowle (eds.) [D. Ames & G. Sainsbury, trans.] (1968) Larousse Encyclopedia of Ancient and Medieval History (Feltham: Paul Hamlyn).

    Fossier, R. (1968) “The Beginning of Europe’s Expansion.” In Dunan & Bowle (1968) pp. 298-321.

    Gayre of Gayre, R. (1972) Miscellaneous Racial Studies, 1943-1972: Volume II (Edinburgh: Armorial).

    Grant, M. (1981) Dawn of the Middle Ages (London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson).

    Guillaume, A. [trans.] (1987) The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Hisham’s “Sirat Rasul Allah” (Oxford: University Press).

    Günther, H. F. K. [G. C. Wheeler, trans.] (1927) The Racial Elements of European History (London: Methuen).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1930) Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes (Munich: J. F. Lehmans Verlag).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1934) Die nordische Rasse bei den Indogermanen Asiens (Munich: J. F. Lehmans Verlag).

    Lewis, B. (1990) Race and Slavery in the Middle East: An Historical Enquiry (Oxford: University Press).

    Mitchell, D. (1976) Pirates (London: Thames & Hudson).

    Reader’s Digest Association (1974) The Last Two Million Years (London: Reader’s Digest Association).

    Siragusa, G. B. [ed.] (1910) Centenario della nascita di Michele Amari (Palermo: Virzi).

    Sordo, E. [I. Michae, trans.] (1962) Moorish Spain: Cordoba, Seville,
    Granada (New York: Crown Publishers).

    Vollers, K. (1910) “Ueber Rassenfarben in der Arabischen Literatur.” In Siragusa (1910) pp. 84-95.

    von Schwerin, H. (1960) “Nordic Elements in Afro-Asia.” Northern World IV (2) pp. 24-30.

    von Schwerin, H. (1964) “European Elements in Afro-Asia.” Mankind Quarterly IV pp. 127-133.

    Weyl, N. (1967) “The Arab World: A Study of Biogenetic Disintegration.” Mankind Quarterly VIII pp. 26-43.

26. Robert at post 23, I know the proto-Armenians are supposed to have been Indo-Europeans. But how many Armenians today look like what you describe above? I live in L.A. I know well what they look like. The fact is that what is denoted as “armenoid” probably pertains to the indigenes Urartian population of the Caucasus prior to the arrival of those physical types you’ve described above from further north.

27. There appears to have been a blond, racially Nordic element, amongst the leadership of the Arabic peoples, from the very earliest times. Thus, as the distinguished Harvard anthropologist Carleton S. Coon has noted, when referring to the population of the Yemen plateau:

    “The Nordic-looking people are usually confined to the social stratum from which civil officers and religious men are drawn, and it is more than a coincidence that the acknowledged descendants of the Prophet are lighter-skinned and show greater evidence of blondism than the rest of the population. There may perhaps have been a Nordic strain associated with the holy families who entered this region from the Hejaz in early post-Islamic times.” [Coon (1939) 408-409.]

    Professor C. S. Coon has also stated, that amongst the people of Morocco:

    “The ordinary city Arabs are little different from their pastoral and
    agricultural brethren, but this rule does not apply to the aristocratic
    families. These merchant-princes are sometimes blond, and of Nordic appearance; others of them look like Mekkan aristocrats in Arabia.” [Coon (1939) 484.]

    The racial trends of the Islamic past have continued into the present era; this has been demonstrated by the American author Nathaniel Weyl, who noted the relevant facts in the following manner:

    “As Gayre cogently observes, there is a general correlation between blondism and Caucasoid features, on the one hand, and social status and leadership, on the other. This is by no means a recent development nor is it a reflection of the superior prestige and power which Nordics and other blond peoples have come to enjoy in the modern world….

    As for the present leadership of the Arab world, Henric von Schwerin has pointed out the extent to which it tends towards blondness and the Nordic type.

    The Christian minorities throughout the area are, as Dr. Gayre has observed, almost invariably superior in status, intelligence and ability to the Moslems, and are at the same time markedly blonder and more definitely Caucasoid in features. Moreover, the most vigorous, resourceful and progressive nations in the region – Lebanon and Jordan in particular – are also those with the largest Christian minorities and the greatest visible admixture of Nordic genes.” [Weyl (1967) 28-29.]

    The Nordic element in the Islamic world continues to play an important role – this is demonstrated by the fact that many of the leading statesmen in the recent history of the Middle East (particularly those who have organised the causes for national liberation and independence), have been predominantly Nordic in type: for instance, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938), the founder of modern Turkey. During the First World War, he fought the Allies at Gallipoli, and after the Armistice in 1918, he prevented a European conquest of Anatolia. After deposing the Ottoman Sultan, he declared himself President of Turkey (1923-1938), and initiated a rapid and thorough process of modernisation and secularisation, which largely succeeded in Westernising the Turkish Republic. He was blond-haired and blue-eyed – features which he seems to have inherited from his Albanian mother. As a result of this, Henric von Schwerin has stated that Ataturk:

    “must be characterised as predominantly Nordic…” [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

    Haj Amin al-Husseini (d. 1974), the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was one of the most important individuals in the recent history of the Middle East: he was, for a long period of time, the foremost leader of the movement for Palestinian liberation, as well as being the President of the World Muslim Congress. During his lifetime he was renowned not only for his political activities, but also because his beard was reddish-blond and his eyes were blue. The Swedish authoress Karin Johnsson compared the Grand Mufti to Saladin, and Henric von Schwerin considered him to be:

    “one of the most pronounced Nordic types among renowned Muslims of today.” [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

    Amongst the leadership of the Algerian rebellion against France, Ferhat Abbas (b. 1899), the first President of the GPRA, from 1958-1961, had green-grey eyes. [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Another high official in the FLN, Ahmed Boumendjel, Head of the GPRA delegation at the negotiations in Melun in 1960, was fair, tall and well-built. It was said that his features were almost like those of a Frenchman. [von Schwerin (1964) 130.] Colonel Houari Boumedienne [Muhammad Boukharouba] (1925-1978), was the leader of the ALN, and after independence from France was granted in 1962, he became the President of Algeria (1965-1978). He was known as “the Swede,” because of his fair hair; he is described as having:

    “wispy, sandy hair, a straggly, reddish mustache, and small grey-blue eyes.” [von Schwerin (1964) 130.]

    Habib Bourguiba (b. 1902), was a leading figure in the struggle for Tunisian independance from French rule, and in 1934 he founded the Neo-Destour Party, as a means towards this end. After independence in 1956, he became the first President of Tunisia (1956-1987); he was blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] In Syria, Sultan Atrash, the leader of the Druse rebellion against France during the 1920s, was very fair-skinned and had clear blue eyes. [Günther (1930) 152; von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 128-129.] Emir Adil Arslan, another important figure of the rebellion, had bluish-green eyes and strongly Nordic features. [von Schwerin (1960) 27; von Schwerin (1964) 129.]

    Muhammad Idris al-Sanusi [Idris I] (1889-1983), Emir of Cyrenaica, and King of Libya (1951-1969), was said to have “calm blue eyes”. [von Schwerin (1960) 30; von Schwerin (1964) 129.] General Nuri-es-Said (1888-1958), the Iraqi premier for many years, was equally blue-eyed. [von Schwerin (1964) 128.] Finally, we should note that Muhammad Ayub Khan (1907-1974), the President of Pakistan (1958-1969), was tall, fair-complexioned and grey-eyed. It was said by certain French journalists that:

    “to judge from his appearance and manners, he could well be taken for a senior British officer…” [von Schwerin (1960) 28; von Schwerin (1964) 128.]

    SOURCES:

    Coon, C. S. (1939) The Races of Europe (New York: Macmillan).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1930) Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes (Munich: J. F. Lehmans Verlag).

    von Schwerin, H. (1960) “Nordic Elements in Afro-Asia.” Northern World IV (2) pp. 24-30.

    von Schwerin, H. (1964) “European Elements in Afro-Asia.” Mankind Quarterly IV pp. 127-133.

    Weyl, N. (1967) “The Arab World: A Study of Biogenetic Disintegration.” Mankind Quarterly VIII pp. 26-43.

28. Note: I am deeply indebted to Richard McCulloch and Karl Earlson, without whom I would not have access to much of the research above (particularly on Arabia, which is not my area of focus). If you’re reading this, Karl, thank you! I miss the wonderful material you used to post to the SNPA list.

29. Rob,
    Mainstream historians ignore the wealth of evidence for fairness in inconvenient places, including the Americas and among the Mongols tribes. You appear to be suggesting the Nordicist narrative which implies that Indo-Europeans infiltrated and were the ruling castes of all kinds of far-flung societies. Wouldn’t it be most parsimonious to believe that light features were pervasive throughout the temperate world and most common among the elites before the demonstrated process of bronzing had its effect?

30. @26,

    I concur on the racial state of modern Armenians.

31. Regarding post 24, if you go to India today, you’ll still see shades of brown in different degrees depending on where you are. When I was there, one guy was describing his friend to me as “black”, and I responded, “but you all look black to me”, to which he responded with a confused look. As to the descriptions of white and black in the Rig Veda, some scholars argue that these have more to do with temperamental and character dispositions than actual physical descriptions.

    I know Buddha is supposed to have been the Sage of the Sakyas. Indologist Asko Parpola thinks the Sakyas were the Indo-Iranic Sakas, whose later descendants were the Scythians. But we’re mixing time frames here. Buddha lived about 1000 years after the time of the alleged original Aryan Invasion of Northern India. It’s the provenance of the Vedic Aryans that’s in question.

    I don’t even know what the point of post 25 was, other than to prove the degree of mongrelization in the Moslem world.

32. Wiki, I’m not pushing the nordicist narrative at all, since I’ve already brought up the controversy surrounding the alleged Aryan Nordic invasion of India. But I confess that your definition of whiteness is much too broad for me, since now you’ve even included afro-asiatics like Arabs and Nilotes. If that’s the case, then would an American pan-Aryanism also extend to these peoples? Why oppose their immigration into Europe, if they’re our white cousins? Sure fairness exists in Mongols- they’re cold-adapted northern Asians after all. What’s your point?

33. “Wouldn’t it be most parsimonious to believe that light features were pervasive throughout the temperate world and most common among the elites before the demonstrated process of bronzing had its effect?”

    I don’t think it’s demonstrated at all. It’s just your speculative hypothesis.

34. Wiki,

    I am not a radical Nordicist, and I don’t think these are far-flung claims.

    It may be politically “parsimonious” to allow revisionist historians (how they defile that term!) to erode away at the Aryan invasion theory, but their motives are clear, and they are not in our best interest. I find your hypothesis unconvincing and I believe there is a good amount of evidence backing me up. Your idea of “whiteness” is shockingly broad and, in my opinion, it’s a slippery slope to total Boasian race-denial. Wouldn’t it also be parsimonious to deny race entirely? We’d get more votes!

    As NN noted, they employ the same sort of fuzzy methodology to deny the Dorian invasion, and they are even doing their best to separate the rise of Neolithic agriculture from the Nordics who gave birth to it, despite the wealth of historical evidence to the contrary. Basically, they ignore the evidence and do what “feels good.”

    During the course of my investigations into Nordic racial history, I have gathered together some rather interesting material on the presence of the Nordic race in the Classical World. Of particular value, are the researches of J. L. Angel, who performed an extensive survey of all ancient Greek crania. Angel analysed these skulls from a typological perspective, and because of the position he took on the reality of race, he was subsequently much criticised by his contemporaries.

    We may note that Angel (1944), calculated that during the Classical period of Greek history (650-150 BC), 27% of the Greek population had been predominantly Nordic in type. He observed that prior to the Classical period, the Nordic element had been larger, and that after it, the element in question had declined. [Angel (1943; 1944; 1945; 1946a, b, c.] Angel (1971), also noted that the immigrant Indo-Europeans, were of Nordic subrace.

    Peterson (1974), studied portrait busts of famous ancient Greek personages, and concluded that the aristocracies of Hellas were a product of closely interbreeding, Eupatrid clans. These clans were mostly Nordic in type, being largely descended from the Indo-European invaders. The demos, as well as most slaves, were of Mediterranean, Pelasgian descent.

    The study of Greek literature which Sieglin (1935) performed, has
    demonstrated that many individuals in the elites of ancient Greece, had blond or red hair. For instance, Alcibiades, Alexander the Great, Critias, Demetrius of Phalerum, King Lysimachus, Ptolemy II Philadelphus and King Pyrrhus, were all fair-haired individuals. Dionysius I, the ruler of Syracuse, had blond hair and freckles, whilst the Athenian playwright Euripides, also had a fair and freckled complexion. [Günther (1956).] Some critics have attempted to claim that the Greek word “ksanthos” (xanthos), means “brown-haired,” rather than “blond-haired.” However, an article by Moonwomon (1994), on colour-meaning in ancient Greek, reveals that the word did in fact mean blond.

    There are also numerous interesting examples from Greek literature which can be cited. For instance, in Homer’s “Iliad,” and “Odyssey,” whilst the aristocrats such as Achilles and Menelaus have blond hair, the slaves Eurybates and Thersites are brunet. Indeed, the Greek orator Dio of Prusa noted that the Greek ideal of beauty was a Nordic one. The Greeks, he said, admired the blond Achilles, but thought that the barbarian Trojan Hector, was black-haired. [Günther (1956).] In his “Argonautica,” the Greek poet Apollonius Rhodius, describes the hero Jason, and all fifty of the Argonauts, as blond-haired. [Sieglin (1935).] When the heroine Electra, in Euripides’ play of that name, finds a lock of her brother Orestes’ hair, on the grave of their father Agamemnon, she can tell that it is his hair, because of its distinctive blond colour. It would appear that the nobility of ancient Greece was distinguished from the dark masses, by its many blond members. [Ridgeway (1909).] The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. [Günther (1956).] For the Greeks, the most beautiful woman who ever lived, Helen, was a blonde, as were those mythical men such as Adonis, who were famed for their handsomeness. [Sieglin (1935).]

    For more literary descriptions of pigmentation in ancient Greek poetry and prose, as well as craniological evidence, I can recommend the following works: De Lapouge (1899), Jax (1933), Myres (1930), Reche (1936) and Ridgeway (1901).

    Günther’s works on the subject of Greek racial history (1927; 1928; 1929a, b; 1956; 1961), are particularly valuable. Günther performed a detailed analysis of Greek history, from a biological perspective. Utilising craniological, literary, and pictorial evidence, he reconstructed the racial structure of ancient Greece. He concluded that the Nordic subrace formed something of an ideal for the Greeks, and that the Nordic element was more influential than any other. At the summit of its achievements, Greece possessed a large Nordic element, but as this element declined, so did Greek culture and civilisation.

    Finally, we may observe that in the fourth-century AD, the Jewish physician and sophist Adamantios, described the “true Greek” thus:

    “Wherever the Hellenic and Ionic race has been kept pure, we see proper tall men of fairly broad and straight build, neatly made, of fairly light skin and blond; the flesh is rather firm, the limbs straight, the extremities well made. The head is of middling size, and moves very easily; the neck is strong, the hair somewhat fair, and soft, and a little curly; the face is rectangular, the lips narrow, the nose straight, and the eyes bright, piercing, and full of light; for of all nations the Greek has the fairest eyes.” [Günther (1927) 157.]

    I do not personally believe that the Nordic racial element in ancient Greece was ever predominant, but I do think that it was concentrated in the elites, and that it therefore probably had a disproportionately large influence. It is easiest to study and trace the impact of this particular element, because of its distinctive pigmentation.

    SOURCES:

    Books

    Angel, J. L. (1971) “Lerna: A Preclassical Site in the Argolid, Volume II —
    The People.” (Washington: Smithsonian Institution Press).

    De Lapouge, G. V. (1899) “L’Aryen: Son Role Social.” (Paris: Albert
    Fontemoing).

    Günther, H. F. K. [G. C. Wheeler, trans.] (1927) “The Racial Elements of
    European History.” (London: Methuen).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1928) “Platon als Huter des Lebens: Platons Zucht- und
    Erziehungsgedanken und deren Bedeutung fur die Gegenwart.” (Munich: J. F.
    Lehmanns Verlag).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1929a) “Rassengeschichte des hellenischen und des
    romischen Volkes: Mit einem Anhang — Hellenische und romische Kopfe
    nordischer Rasse.” (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1929b) “Rassenkunde Europas: Mit besonderer
    Berucksichtigung der Rassengeschichte der Hauptvolker indogermanischer
    Sprache.” (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag).

    Günther, H. F. K. (1956) “Lebensgeschichte des hellenischen Volkes.” (Pahl:
    Verlag Hohe Warte).

    Jax, K. (1933) “Die weibliche Schonheit in der griechischen Dichtung.”
    (Innsbruck: Universitats-Verlag Wagner).

    Myres, J. L. (1930) “Who Were the Greeks?” (Berkeley: University of
    California Press).

    Reche, O. (1936) “Rasse und Heimat der Indogermanen.” (Munich: J. F.
    Lehmanns Verlag).

    Ridgeway, W. (1901) “The Early Age of Greece, Volume I.” (London: Cambridge
    University Press).

    Sieglin, W. (1935) “Die blonden Haare der indogermanischen Volker des
    Altertums.” (Munich: J. F. Lehmanns Verlag).

    Articles

    Angel, J. L. (1943) “Ancient Cephallenians: The Population of a
    Mediterranean Island.” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, I,
    229-260.

    Angel, J. L. (1944) “A Racial Analysis of the Ancient Greeks: An Essay on
    the Use of Morphological Types.” American Journal of Physical Anthropology,
    II, 329-376.

    Angel, J. L. (1945) “Skeletal Material From Attica.” Hesperia, XIV, 279-363.

    Angel, J. L. (1946a) “Race, Type, and Ethnic Group in Ancient Greece.” Human
    Biology, XVIII, 1-32.

    Angel, J. L. (1946b) “Skeletal Change in Ancient Greece.” American Journal
    of Physical Anthropology, IV, 69-97.

    Angel, J. L. (1946c) “Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth.” American
    Anthropologist, XLVIII, 493-533.

    Günther, H. F. K. (1961) “Like a Greek God…. Translated by Vivian Bird
    from Professor Hans F. K. Guenther’s ‘Rassenkunde des Hellenischen Volkes’.”
    Northern World, VI (1), 5-16.

    Moonwomon, B. (1994) “Color Categorization in Early Greek.” Journal of
    Indo-European Studies, XXII, 37-65.

    Peterson, R. (1974) “The Greek Face.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, II,
    385-406.

    Ridgeway, W. (1909) “The Relation of Anthropology to Classical Studies.”
    Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland,
    XXXIX, 10-25.

35. @31

    I spoke to the question of “colour” in the Vedas above.

    The point of post #25 was exactly as you extrapolated: I firmly reject Wiki’s contention that virtually the entire world was comprised of White people who simply became “bronzed.”

36. “It may be politically “parsimonious” to allow revisionist historians (how they defile that term!) to erode away at the Aryan invasion theory, but their motives are clear, and they are not in our best interest.”

    I agree that the greatest opponents of the theory are the modern Hindus themselves, but more mainstream historians are now joining the fray and see that the counter-argument has some merit.

    “Your idea of “whiteness” is shockingly broad and, in my opinion, it’s a slippery slope to total Boasian race-denial. Wouldn’t it also be parsimonious to deny race entirely? We’d get more votes!”

    I agree here also. Turks, for example, are a perfect example of people who probably have plenty of afro-asiatic and levantine E3b and J2 haplogroups. They don’t have any mongoloid or negro genes to my knowledge. The original Turkic altaic tribes were supposed to have been mongoloid, but this component has been all but bred out during the long trek westward. Would they, according to Wiki’s broad definition, be regarded as white?

    “As NN noted, they employ the same sort of fuzzy methodology to deny the Dorian invasion,”

    The Out of India Theory doesn’t deny migrations into Europe by Indo-Europeans, just that the urheimat was in northwest India and the invasions were from there into the north of Eurasia and then west.

    “and they are even doing their best to separate the rise of Neolithic agriculture from the Nordics who gave birth to it, despite the wealth of historical evidence to the contrary.”

    Where is the wealth of this evidence, Robert? This is new to me. To my knowledge, the neolithic arose among levantines of southeast Anatolia/northern Syria about 10,000 b.c. I wasn’t aware historians were trying to separate the rise of neolithic agriculture from Nordics, because I wasn’t aware they were ever considered its progenitors in the first place.

37. I know I’m proposing a radically different formulation, and I don’t expect you to purchase it yet, based on my pitch. But I would like to know how the Nordicist theory explains the Chachapoyas of South America or the Ainu. I would like to know how Jews and Berbers are so light despite being truly indigenous to North Africa and Arabia.

    You put scare quotes around civilized bronzing as if I were describing a controversial phenomenon. Whites create the civilization then primitive populations migrate to them initially as laborers but gradually compromise the genetic integrity of the entire civilization. If you do accept that this is an observable pattern, why not consider extrapolating that back?

38. I don’t know who the Chachapoyas are, Wiki, but as I recall from memory, the Ainu, despite having fair skin from having evolved in a northerly latitude, having nothing to do with Whites, contrary to prior theories. Neither their blood grouping, haplotypes, fingerprint patterns, or sundadont dental configuration allies them to Whites. I think it’s theorized they might be a generalized mongoloid population or even northerly bleached Australoids. As to Jews, we know the Ashkenazi and probably even the Sephardics in Spain are a mixed batch. The Jews who never left the middle-east aren’t that fair and are pretty much indistinguishable from the surrounding Semitic Arabic populous. I’ve seen a few pictures of these fair Berbers from Coon’s book a while back. I’d venture a guess their fairness isn’t indigenous to the native Afro-asiatic populous. They could very well be descendants of the early bronze age wanderers from Europe who built the numerous megaliths still extant in North
    Africa. The ancient Egyptians referred to these blond people as the Tamahu. There is a great book on this subject and the megalithic culture of Europe called “Atlantis of the North” by Jurgen Spanuth, which can still be purchased from Amazon. The Vandals likewise might have left an imprint during the middle ages.

39. I am in agreement with post #38 and I also recommend the pioneering work of Jürgen Spanuth, which could hold many of the answers to the questions Wiki raises.

    Regarding Neolithic agriculture and Nordics: my understanding is that the question is far from resolved; it ties in with the whole proto-Indo-European debate, which is still very active. I admit that I have been too forceful in this assertion at times, relying on partisan sources that buttress my innate Nordic-determinism, and I thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    After considering this at length, I tend to agree with you that Nordics were not the first to develop agriculture. 10,000 B.C. may be pushing agriculture in Anatolia back a little further than most would accept, but it was first established there by 8,000 B.C., and perhaps somewhat earlier. It seems it might have developed in south-central Anatolia before it appeared in the Syrian border region. Still, 8,000 B.C. is probably over 1,000 years before the proto-Nordic Danubians of the Danube basin made the transition to agriculture, and they were almost certainly the first members of the Nordic racial group to do so.

    As to the connection of the Anatolian agriculturalists with Europe, Richard McCulloch wrote the following in The Races of Humanity:

    The genetic ancestry of the native European population as a whole is about 80% from the original Upper Paleolithic inhabitants who survived the 5,000 years of the Last Glacial Maximum in southern refuge areas and then [beginning about 13,000 B.C.] re-expanded and repopulated the central and northern regions of the continent, and 20% from the Neolithic farmers who expanded from Anatolia into Europe starting about 8,000 years ago, with the latter element concentrated primarily in the Mediterranean lands of southern Europe, indicating that the initial spread of agriculture into central and northern Europe was a process of cultural diffusion rather than a movement of people.

    Another interesting question is to what extent, if any, the agriculture of the Danubians, and the later agriculture of central and northern Europe in general, is connected to that of the Anatolians. The crops raised by the Danubians and later central Europeans do not seem to be descended from the crops raised by the Anatolians, so to the extent that there may be a connection it would seem to be more in the concept than in the actual practice, i.e., the cultural diffusion mentioned above.

    Regarding the expansion of Anatolian agriculturalists across southern Europe beginning about 6,000 B.C., this is almost certainly the source of the rather pronounced genetic divergence between southern Europeans on one side and central and northern Europeans on the other. As genetic studies indicate, the population of southern Europe since that expansion has been largely descended from those Anatolian neolithic agriculturalists, with Indo-European peoples from central and northern Europe moving into southern Europe beginning about 2,000 B.C. and continuing into historical times until about A.D. 600.

    There is also a lively debate about the Anatolian and Indo-European connection, with some schools of thought actually claiming that the first proto-Indo-European language originated in Anatolia in addition to agriculture. We can be reasonably certain that the neolithic Anatolian agriculturalists who expanded across southern Europe beginning circa 6,000 B.C. were not Indo-European speakers. It is likely that Etruscan, a non-Indo-European (IE) language that the ancients associated with the non-IE languages of Lydian and Carian in central and southern west Anatolia, was in fact a descendant of their language group. Hittite, the earliest IE language associated with Anatolia, established there during the third millennium B.C., was centered in eastern Anatolia, and does not seem to be ancestral to any other IE languages, but to be the product of a very early split in the IE language family. Luwian, the first IE language of northwest Anatolia, also established during the third millennium B.C., is associated with Troy and seems to have ancestral connections to the earliest Greek; however, none of these languages seem to be ancestral to the IE language groups of central and northern Europe (Germanic, Keltic, Lithuanian and Slavic) but rather appear to be linguistic dead-ends.

    This all suggests that the proto-IE language was present somewhere north of Anatolia and expanding sometime before 3,000 B.C. This could support Marija Gimbuta’s “Kurgan” theory for a Ukrainian or north Caucasus origin for the IE language family. The question is how long before 3,000 B.C? If the expansion of the IE language family and agriculture were connected in their expansion across central and northern Europe, a connection that seems very neat and tidy, this would push the proto-IE language back to 6,000 B.C., and would have both it and agriculture expanding from the Danube basin across central and northern Europe very soon after the beginning of the Anatolian expansion across southern Europe. In both cases there would probably be a less than 50% population replacement of the indigenous peoples by the expanding agriculturalists. In this case Gimbuta’s Kurgans, to be the original IE speakers expanding along with agriculture, would have to have begun their westward expansion by about 6,000 B.C., about 3,000 years before the beginning of the IE expansion east and south.

40. Rob,
    Proto-Nordic is biased against me and my R1b brothers and sisters. We at the NAADP prefer “Danubian”.

    According to my theory of origins, Whiteness was most intensely selected for in the areas which supported the highest population density: the major river valleys. The lack of linguistic diversity throughout the temperate belt is consistent with this proposition, as well.

    This would place Aryans at the Volga River valley.

    Regarding the expansion of Anatolian agriculturalists across southern Europe beginning about 6,000 B.C., this is almost certainly the source of the rather pronounced genetic divergence between southern Europeans on one side and central and northern Europeans on the other. As genetic studies indicate, the population of southern Europe since that expansion has been largely descended from those Anatolian neolithic agriculturalists

    Hopefully we’ve sufficiently bored everybody with anthropological verbiage that I can declare that a sizable portion of Southern European ancestry is Nilotic in origin. The Maltese and *ahem* are two examples of relatively “pure” remnants of this race which was originally nothing like the Arabians who ostensibly represent the pure type.

    Guest Lurker,
    The Ainu evolved Whiteness independently of Europeans. That’s my point. If a hominid population with Neanderthal admixture boils in a stew of neolithic warfare for long enough, it becomes White. If you don’t add the Neanderthal ingredient, you end up with East Asians. The Chachapoyas were a South American tribe which often had blond hair and their women were often kidnapped for precisely that reason

    This is the basic pivot point that the amateur anthropologist arrives at. There has to be an explanation for all this data about far-flung groups having White rulers. The mainstream anthropologists ignore this data. The WN community typically explains it in terms of Aryans traveling great distances and leveraging their superior leadership to master alien civilizations where they went. I think neolithic warfare made populations more White, with the warlords being the Whitest because they brought the most attractive (White) females into their harems. The Whiteness was indigenous. Homegrown.

    Europe isn’t the “home” of the White race. It’s where the once-pervasive race still survives. The White race originally extended to the edge of China and Siberia, throughout Central and South Asia, and across the Middle East and North Africa. When civilization starts, it starts pumping backwards, sucking in primitive humans from the refuges and eventually bronzing due to that. Europe’s geography left it with nothing to suck, which is why we don’t suck.

41. The opinion of the majority of professional archaeologists interviewed seems to be that there is no archaeological evidence to support external Indo-Aryan origins. Thus while the linguistic community stands firm with the Kurgan hypothesis archaeological community tends to be more agnostic.

    According to one archaeologist, J.M. Kenoyer:

    “Although the overall socioeconomic organization changed, continuities in technology, subsistence practices, settlement organization, and some regional symbols show that the indigenous population was not displaced by invading hordes of Indo-Aryan speaking people. [NN: nor would a political economist expect there to have been a “displacement” – rather, a *stratification* of the society would have been expected, and the invasion hypothesis is thus consistent with this evidence] For many years, the ‘invasions’ or ‘migrations’ of these Indo-Aryan-speaking Vedic/Aryan tribes explained the decline of the Indus civilization and the sudden rise of urbanization in the Ganga-Yamuna valley. This was based on simplistic models of culture change and an uncritical reading of Vedic texts…” [NN: simplistic, indeed, if one assumes a “displacement,” rather than a subjugation which would account, in classic fashion, for the “sudden rise”]

    The examination of 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley Civilization and comparison of those skeletons with modern-day Indians by Kenneth Kennedy has also been a supporting argument for the OIT. [NN: precisely what political economy would predict of the survival, into the modern day, of majority underclass elements who were initially subjugated and interbred by force and who are thus indistinguishable from the issue of miscegenation, today] Kennedy claims that the Harappan inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization are no different from the inhabitants of India in the following millennia. [NN: And were the inhabitants of Europe in 1400 AD recognizably different, skeletally, from those who had endured and participated in the invasions of the Fifth-Century AD?] However, this does not rule out one version of the Aryan Migration Hypothesis which suggests that the only “migration” was one of languages as opposed to a complete displacement of the indigenous population.

42. Sounds much like the story of the decline of the Classic Maya – the migration to the North of the peninsula, and the abandonment of the South under pressure from northern migrants, and the rise of the Toltec-Maya upon the re-stratification of the refugees by the Nahua intruders:

    Around 1800 BCE, signs of a gradual decline began to emerge, and by around 1700 BCE, most of the cities were abandoned. However, the Indus Valley Civilization did not disappear suddenly, and many elements of the Indus Civilization can be found in later cultures. Current archaeological data suggests that material culture classified as Late Harappan may have persisted until at least c. 1000-900 BCE and was partially contemporaneous with the Painted Grey Ware culture. Archaeologists have emphasized that, just as in most areas of the world, there was a continuous series of cultural developments. These link “the so-called two major phases of urbanisation in South Asia. A possible natural reason for the IVC’s decline is connected with climate change that is also signaled for the neighboring areas of the Middle East: The Indus valley climate grew significantly cooler and drier from about 1800 BCE, linked to a general weakening of the monsoon at that time. Alternatively, a crucial factor may have been the disappearance of substantial portions of the Ghaggar Hakra river system. A tectonic event may have diverted the system’s sources toward the Ganges Plain, though there is complete uncertainty about the date of this event as most settlements inside Ghaggar-Hakra river beds have not yet been dated. Although this particular factor is speculative, and not generally accepted, the decline of the IVC, as with any other civilization, will have been due to a combination of various reasons.

43. Europe isn’t the “home” of the White race. It’s where the once-pervasive race still survives. The White race originally extended to the edge of China and Siberia, throughout Central and South Asia, and across the Middle East and North Africa. – Wikitopian

    This sounds accurate based on what I’ve read of the subject. Aryans (or “Indo-Europeans” if you want to use the politically correct term) once extended across a broad swath of land extending far into Asia. That’s why I don’t believe there was a single “urheimat” for Aryan / IE peoples or whites in general (since there seem to be other white races, i.e. Uralics), but rather a larger set of homelands strewn across northwestern Eurasia.

    rather, a *stratification* of the society would have been expected, and the invasion hypothesis is thus consistent with this evidence – NN

    Even if they haven’t any archaeological evidence, i.e. artifacts, there is plenty of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence to support the hypothesis that white-skinned Aryan peoples invaded India and subjugated it by force. I think Mr. Kenoyer’s writings rather disingenuously ignore all of that.

44. “Even if they haven’t any archaeological evidence, i.e. artifacts, there is plenty of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence to support the hypothesis that white-skinned Aryan peoples invaded India and subjugated it by force. I think Mr. Kenoyer’s writings rather disingenuously ignore all of that.”

    The linguistic evidence seems to be the strongest in favor of the invasion model. The genetic evidence at present is weakest, with India currently having been found to have the most diverse and oldest clades. This could change. There’s even evidence now R1A might have arisen in China or southern siberia, around 20,000, then split into 2 groups: 1 head towards India, the other west to Europe, though these sub-clades from Europe might have later also travelled east into India as well. Here’s an article for those interested:

    \http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

45. “The Ainu evolved Whiteness independently of Europeans. That’s my point. If a hominid population with Neanderthal admixture boils in a stew of neolithic warfare for long enough, it becomes White. If you don’t add the Neanderthal ingredient, you end up with East Asians.”

    That’s speculative and the recent genetic evidence suggests neandertals had very little to do, if anything, with Europoid genetics, unless you believe the issue is politicized and they’re deliberately lying. I’d think that if there was fibbing, the multi-regionalists would have raised a controversy about it. However, they’ve been relatively quiet, so it seems the genetic evidence is pretty solid on this. Lightness might have evolved independently, not whiteness. Whiteness is more than just color. It’s morphology as well, and people like the ainu simply don’t have white morphology.

    I believe Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals was the home of the White Race, including Indo-European, Finno-Ugric Uralics, and other pre-Indo-European peoples now extinct or assimilated, a vestige of which would be Basque. The genetic and anthropological evidence from the Lake Baikal region suggests it was first populated by mongoloids about 20,000 B.C. The Indo-European Afanasievo culture would have probably been the first Europoid population to reach the area by about 3500 B.C.

    About the Maltese, how did you conclude they’re Nilotes? Have they got haplogroups E3b or E1b1b? And even if they do, like many southern Euros do, what makes you think they are the purest representatives of the type?

46. “We can be reasonably certain that the neolithic Anatolian agriculturalists who expanded across southern Europe beginning circa 6,000 B.C. were not Indo-European speakers.”

    @39, that seems to be the dominant theory, that it was the Kurgans who were the Indo-Euros, rather than Colin Renfrew’s notion it was the Anatolians. But those 80% indigenous paleolithic hunter genes for Europeans by Sykes has just recently been called into question. A recent study claims the exact opposite is true, and that even R1B arose in Anatolia. They were discussing this finding recently on Majority Rights. As to the Kurgans, I’ve never heard the notion about them being agriculturalists, only nomads. There is a guy at lexiline.com, though, who has been trying to push the rise of agriculture further and further north, because I think he’s a Balt by origin and this is his pet theory. He’s heavily into astro-archaeology, and even though he’s an amateur, his stuff’s really interesting. In a nutshell, I think it’s his theory that it was Balts who first came down and settled around the Black Sea area. Later, when the Black Sea flooded in around 5500 B.C., it was these Indo-European people who migrated to Mesopotamia, the Nile Valley, and elsewhere, forming the historical civilizations there.

    On these northern genesis theories, have you or anyone else here ever read “The Baltic Origins of Homer’s Epic Tales”? I think the evidence is much flimsier than Spanuth’s work, but it’s still a fun read. He claims all of the Homeric Greek tales actually took place in Scandinavia, not Greece. Jean Haudry is another scholar who maintains a northerly genesis for the Indo-European speaking folk. I think Haudry has been linked to the European New Right.

47. Even if they haven’t any archaeological evidence, i.e. artifacts, there is plenty of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence to support the hypothesis that white-skinned Aryan peoples invaded India and subjugated it by force. I think Mr. Kenoyer’s writings rather disingenuously ignore all of that.

    And the “sudden rise” is a drop-dead giveaway of an invasion, conquest, and forceful stratification. It’s politico-economic physics and the pattern of history. The alternative is a miracle that nothing but explicit, incontrovertible, contemporaneous testimony could credibly affirm. And this is absent.

48. “As NN noted, they employ the same sort of fuzzy methodology to deny the Dorian invasion,”

    The Out of India Theory doesn’t deny migrations into Europe by Indo-Europeans,…

    And that is not what I intended to convey.

    Rather it is those who involve themselves in ancient Med history who, seemingly, are indulging an *ideological*, rather than a nativist, agenda of the same provenance.

49. I would like to know how Jews and Berbers are so light despite being truly indigenous to North Africa and Arabia.

    I don’t know what the confusion is about, Jews and Berbers are both mixed populations of Europeans and Near Easterners. Berbers having more sub-Saharan African contributions. There’s a descending scale of whiteness and purity you could say from Northern Europe to Southern Europe to Jews to North Africans.

    Berbers display a heterogeneous autosomal profile but in general autosomal markers are predominantly European or Eurasian with a minor but significant Sub-Saharan African component. As a result, Berber populations possess a genetic profile that is intermediate between Europeans and Sub-Saharan Africans. Analysis of HLA markers has shown that Berbers have a close genetic relationship with Mediterranean Europeans but also possess some characteristics of Sub-Saharan Africans.

    And according to Cherni et al. 2008 “the post-Last glacial maximum expansion originating in Iberia not only led to the resettlement of Europe but also of North Africa”.

50. Mark,
    The Maltese, Ashkenazi, and Berber don’t have enough European admixture in them, in my opinion, to explain their Whiteness away with that. This is really not entirely novel, as it correlates with the hypothesized “Mediterranean sub-race” of the 20th century anthropologists.

    What strikes me as queer, regarding the Nordicist theory, is how we’re supposed to be the ones adapted for the Arctic, yet there’s a whole parade of races, all of them darker, less attractive, and less intelligent, who were to the North of us. Rushton was kind enough to respond, suggesting that the Eskimo and similar populations were genetically isolated and specialized for a different diet. It still doesn’t add up for me. If the temperate belt didn’t select for Whites, then what race did it select for? Where did that race go?