Washington
Yesterday morning, Pastor Lindstedt informed me that Harold Covington had mentioned Occidental Dissent in the latest broadcast of Radio Free Northwest. I listened to the podcast and mulled over writing a response. Last night, I received a phone call from a friend about the issue, as Covington also slandered The Occidental Quarterly in his diatribe.
(1) Nothing in my writing indicates that I am “raging” about the Northwest. I’ve spent the last few weeks analyzing the impact of the 2010 midterm elections at the state level. I have written about Utah, Mississippi, Texas, Iowa, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Virginia, Georgia, Massachusetts and Rhode Island.
(2) This website is self financed out of my own pocket. Unlike Harold Covington, I have a job which pays the bills. I don’t work for The Occidental Quarterly or solicit donations here anymore.
(3) I don’t consider Harold Covington and The Northwest Front a “threat” or a “competitor” to Occidental Dissent. Jack Ryan has been advertising Radio Free Northwest here for months. We have been sending traffic his way.
(4) I think Covington is living in a fantasy world. It is hard enough to get White Nationalists to eat breakfast with you at an IHOP restaurant. The notion that these people are going to form a vanguard and launch an IRA style insurrection against the U.S. federal government and win … well, let’s just say that a flying saucer is more likely to land on the White House lawn before something like that happens.
Yesterday, Covington spent a considerable amount of time discussing whether or not a stock exchange would exist in the Northwest Republic. I think HAC might be getting a little ahead of himself here. I don’t even think there is a restaurant or a gas station affiliated with the Northwest Front.
(5) Years ago, HAC had a video on YouTube of men in camo with rocket launchers and machine guns going wild. For some reason, I thought those were his supporters at the time. I can’t seem to find the video now.
(6) In the podcast, Covington disavowed the need to do anything practical. Instead, he reiterated his plea for White Nationalists in other parts of America to uproot themselves and move to the Pacific Northwest.
There are over 10 million Americans now living in the Northwest. 6.6. million of them live in Washington state. The vast majority of them are White. Why can’t Harold Covington recruit from this vast constituency and prove to skeptics that his plan is viable and has the support of the indigenous population?
(7) A successful insurgency is inconceivable in the absence of local support. If Covington was serious about this idea, he would focus his efforts on establishing a power base among the natives already on the ground in the region.
(8) There are 3.5 million people in the Seattle metropolitan area. The vast majority of them are liberals. In 2008, King County went 69.97 percent for Barack Obama. His margin of victory there and in neighboring counties in Western Washington ensured that Obama carried the state in a landslide.
There are about 550,000 people in Wyoming. Unlike Washington, which is politically dominated by the SWPL vote, Wyoming is the most conservative state in America. The locals are highly supportive of gun rights and have strong grievances against the federal government over public land ownership.
If there was a “Northwest Migration,” it would make a lot more sense to relocate to Wyoming or Alaska where the smaller population would allow migrant White Nationalists to have a far greater impact.
The ninety or so members of the House Immigration Reform Caucus have proven they’ll oppose and vote against amnesty. Great, that will buy us maybe 2-4 years at most.
Mr. Dithers
Preventing amnesty will only gain us a few years, but an immigration moratorium would gain us a lot more, as this MSM story admitted.
Under a purely theoretical “zero immigration” scenario in which the U.S. effectively does not take in any immigrants, whites would remain the majority in 2050, making up a solid 58 percent of the U.S. population. In such a case, the share of Hispanics would increase to 21 percent because of high fertility rates and a younger population.
White Americans’ majority to end by mid-century
By HOPE YEN (AP)
If you combined an immigration moratorium with a White pro-natalist religious revival the United States could be restored by political and cultural actions, no collapse required.
Hunter writes:
“Greg Johnson’s hatred of America, obsession with European fascism, and his visceral dislike of Christianity is counterproductive and associates White Nationalism with various albatrosses we would be much wiser to avoid”
Amen to that 😉
The anti-immigrant trend in the GOP is encouraging, but now that the election is over, I’m eager to see what they do. At the national level, most of the historical evidence suggests they will do little or nothing, or the exact opposite of what they promised. But, circumstances are different now. Obama and the Democrats still hold the Executive branch and the Senate, so there will be significant limitations on what the new GOP can accomplish. I will be satisfied if they introduce and pass aggressive immigration and anti-Obama bills and then send them to the Senate to be voted down with the whole world watching. This will prove they are responding to the White conservative grassroots to the extent possible and is sure to be highly polarizing. I’d say we should know something in about six months. If the new GOP House hasn’t passed serious legislation to challenge Obama’s immigration agenda by then, we can probably assume business as usual.
People interested in Wyoming as a new homeland could familiarize themselves with the history of the Free State Movement and Free State Wyoming movement.
Briefly a Libertarian poli-sci grad student came up with a project to get several thousand libertarians to agree to move to a state and transform it. Everyone agreeing to the plan signed a contract agreeing to move, and got to vote in a referendem to choose the state. This was dubbed the “Free State Project”. At the end of that process New Hampshire was chosen, but there was a loud contingent that decided to implement the plan in Wyoming. (The ballot process allowed people to opt-out of some states, and most of the Wyoming suppoters had opted out of anything in the East.)
Thus was born “Free State Wyoming”, championed by Boston T. Party the author of “Boston’s Gun Bible” and other books on freedom topics. Boston offered a much more decentrailized plan for Wyoming.
As far as I know both projects are still moving forward, but neither has come anywhere near realizing their goals. The New Hampshire project was trying for a large infusion of people. That never happened.
The Wyoming project was trying to take over three sparsely inhabited counties. That has not happened either, as far as I know.
Anyone interested in pursuing something similar would probably do well to study the history of the Free State movements.
Under a purely theoretical “zero immigration” scenario in which the U.S. effectively does not take in any immigrants, whites would remain the majority in 2050, making up a solid 58 percent of the U.S. population. In such a case, the share of Hispanics would increase to 21 percent because of high fertility rates and a younger population.
That’s very optimistic. Non-Hispanic, European descended Whites are probably no more than 60% of the population right now. And zero immigration (if it ever happens) is years away from becoming a reality.
Meanwhile, this is what profit-driven marketing forcasters are predicting:
Multiculturalism Will Explode: Though households of the future are projected to be smaller, their ethnic and racial makeup will differ dramatically from today. By 2025, more than half of all families with children will be multi-cultural and less than half will be native-born non-Hispanic white. Though Hispanics will be the largest group, Asians, African and Caribbean Blacks, among others, will make up significant shares. Reaching these demographics will require marketers to develop campaigns that embrace and understand this diversity.
“If explicit White Nationalists won’t act on their own ideas, and this includes Mr. Dithers, why should White conservatives – many of whom are not even explicitly White – be expected to do so?”
You don’t act on your ideas either. You write under a pen name and refuse to show your face on camera so who are you to criticize anyone? Unlike you I was fired from my first job after college for being a little too open about my political viewpoints so I learned early what kind of treatment awaits an open WN. But don’t let that stop you from organizing the Hunter Wallace army of radical realists under your real names and with cameras rolling.
As I tried to explain to you before, California voters reacted to the invasion of their state with prop 187 which would have gone a long way in solving the problem. The Federal courts arguably resorted to an extra legal maneuver in blocking its implementation. After that the window of opportunity for whites and patriots was closed. This illustrates two key points; the conservatives’ failure to act swiftly and decisively before 1994 and the treason and corruption in the judicial branch of government. It has nothing to do with WN’s failure to organize and convert people en masse. Conservatives had political power…..WN’s didn’t so where the blame rests should be clear to any reasonable person.
California’s fate will be shared by the rest of the country if the current bumper crop of conservative chest thumpers reacts indecisively or with half measures. Time will tell. If the utter chaos in California leads to a fundamental change in the way white people around the country view immigration then that’s a price worth paying.
I don’t know why you are on a kick about Mass, Hawaii and Vermont. Massachusetts has always been one of the most left wing states in the union and a lost cause, Hawaii has never been a bastion of the white man, and you lost me with Vermont.
“Pat Buchanan admitted to adopting David Duke’s platform.”
Oh, you mean Duke the former KKK member turned mainstreamer for political expediency? It doesn’t get more vanguardist than the KKK. Thanks for making my case.
The white South Africans foolishly believed their leaders, conservative and liberal alike, that they would not suffer in any way under black rule and would retain some political power and self determination. American conservatives either piled on the white South Africans with the radical left or remained silent They signed on to the economic sanctions imposed against S. Africa during the 70’s and 80’s. White S. Africa is unique in that the whole world was allied against them. Sadly, some whites have grown so weak and apathetic that they can’t be saved and that may be the case with South Africa.
“In America, over 35,000 White women are raped by negroes every year. Where is the proof that “worse is better”?”
Uh, maybe because the majority of white people don’t know this fact. Why aren’t the conservatives, who you insist are our champions, discussing this ongoing atrocity? Why isn’t conservative talk radio disseminating this truth?
18) It looks like at most “the Bell Curve” encouraged five people to attend the American Renaissance conference but otherwise led to no change in national policy. Chalk one up for radical realism.
“Similarly, The Israel Lobby sparked a national discussion over Jewish influence over American foreign policy.”
Earth to Hunter: No change in U.S. policy towards Israel and the Lobby is as strong as ever with as much Congressional support as ever. Chalk another one up for radical realism. Whereas vanguardists whine on their internet blogs, radical realists wrap their whining and bitching in hardback to sell at Barnes and Noble and speak more about it on C-Span book review.
20) There you go putting words into my mouth. I never spoke glowingly of GLK or said I hoped for a societal collapse. I said if that happened whites would be able to fight back against non-white criminals without legal repercussions.
I believe the radical vanguard WNs most important contribution over the last 15 years has been in using the Internet to convince many people that conservatism and soft racialism are not enough to save us and that the Jewish Question is important. I doubt there is anyone reading this Web site right who hasn’t been at least a little influenced by people like William Pierce and Alex Linder, including me, which forces me to give credit where credit is due. The only reason I know about Pierce and Linder’s more ugly views is because I read them. Even Linder who some might say made no contributions of value to the movement because of his over the top rhetoric that often crossed over into sociopathy made a critical contribution to this movement with his concept of “naming the Jew.” He drummed this critical idea into a lot of peoples’ heads, including the heads of people who don’t otherwise care for his work like me but understand that particular insight is essential.
The main problem with the vanguard critique and its analysis of reality in general is that it is purely negative and offers no positive solutions to the problems it diagnoses that are grounded in reality.
William Pierce’s life work was a classic example of this dynamic. Pierce was great at diagnosing problems and explaining why conservatism in any form, even a racialist strain of conservatism, will never work. But then after reaching this conclusion he spent four decades rehashing this theme over and over again, and never came up with a solution or even a proposal for a solution that might begin to reverse our course. And by solutions I mean he never came up with concrete plans or specific proposals to begin to solve our problems in the world as they exist right now. Instead, he retreated to the mountains and stayed there until the end of his life. Pierce didn’t even use his writing gifts to their full extent. Instead of producing a monograph or systematic statement of his views, he wrote essays, Hunter and the Turner Diaries, and went on the radio, often repeating the same ideas and themes over and over again but applied to different news or historical events. If all the circumstances of Pierce’s time allowed him to do was write, he could have at least produced a work that might have had some lasting value and relevance beyond his own time, something that might have have gotten published in the mainstream eventually where it could have reached a wider audience.
In effect, and this is somewhat of a simplification but not by much, you can boil down the WN vanguard message to “1) conservatism won’t work, 2) the system is rigged and it doesn’t make a difference who you vote for, and 3) we need a revolution.” OK, fine. But how? They never say. (And #2 is definitely false). They never say what they plan to do about it. And this is the problem with the vanguards. They never give a positive account of what they plan to do about the things they complain about. Or, if they do give an account, it usually involves a far fetched collapse scenario that may never happen. Or, the solution involves very high-level generalities that are well intentioned by useless without specifics like “build networks and spread ideas.”
Spreading ides on the Internet has had value by attracting many people to WN, but clearly it has not attracted enough people to WN or we wouldn’t be in this fix. Accordingly, if the vanguards don’t have a solution that goes beyond the Internet, in effect they are offering no solution at all.
Meanwhile, Buchanan is reaching millions with both his books and on national TV, and conservative Republicans manage the occasional victory that holds back the tide, which is certainly better than nothing, yet the vanguards generally write these accomplishments off as insignificant — while sitting on the sidelines and doing little but offering the same diagnosis they’ve offered for the last 40 years.
HW is at least proposing a solution, something that can be done now.
A determined stealth WN can get elected as GOP a state rep right now and vote in an Arizona law right now. Or, he can do nothing that that will help White people but retain an ideological purity that is completely neutered in reality.
The bottom line is that if the USA is the Titantic going down since 1965, mainstreamers have done much more than the vanguards to bail out water and keep us from going down faster than we would have otherwise without mainstreamer efforts
Just to recapitulate and restate my arguments:
1. When Hunter says “we” are making gains on immigration, that is his imagination talking. Republicans and Tea Party people are making gains on immigration. It is all very promising, but it is not White Nationalism
2. We have to remember that the mainstream right wing position on immigration is far short of what White Nationalists want: we want a white ethnostate; to get there, we need to get people thinking about immigration in explicitly racial terms and not to apologize or retreat from that. We need to work to move the mainstream in our direction. That means that we need to engage the far edge of the mainstream, articulate our views, and bring people around to them. That is being done quite well by the people at V-Dare.
3. The mainstream does not need us to push for a border fence, an end to birthright citizenship, and the other proposals being floated. They did that without us, and they will continue to do that without us.
4. We do need to push for the White Nationalist position on immigration, because if we don’t articulate that position, nobody else will.
5. WNs do not have the money or the manpower yet to engage productively in the political process. Donating to and working for system politicians allows them to spend our money and time on their goals, which are far short of our goals. We need to work on our goals.
6. The idea that WNs can meaningfully influence the outcome of political races is not impossible, but neither is it likely. And taking “everything we got,” as Hunter puts it, and putting it behind system politicians is like taking one’s capital to Vegas and playing craps rather than working the long hard hours to build a business that will produce long term income and security.
Vegas, like the political mainstream, is full of bright lights and slick people who will stroke your ego as long as you have money you can be parted from. It is sure more fun than the hard work of building a productive business. But in the long run, the house wins. And in terms of the movement, that means that WNs take HW’s advice and go courting system politicians are going to end up cleaned out, burned out, and useless to our cause.
LEW wrote: But then after reaching this conclusion he spent four decades rehashing this theme over and over again, and never came up with a solution or even a proposal for a solution that might begin to reverse our course. And by solutions I mean he never came up with concrete plans or specific proposals to begin to solve our problems in the world as they exist right now.
LEW, you surely didn’t expect that Dr William Pierce could have solved the problem all by himself, did you. For four decades, he was crying for help from White people of all stripes to no avail – rich and poor, smart and dumb, academics and rednecks. The only soul who heard his cry in the wilderness and responded with some real action was Bob Mathews.
LEW wrote: Pierce didn’t even use his writing gifts to their full extent. Instead of producing a monograph or systematic statement of his views, he wrote essays
You can find systematic statement of Pierce’s views in the monograph “Which Way Western Man?” by William Simpson. It is no accident that it was Dr Pierce who published that book. How many people have read that book or even know about its existence? Have you read that book from cover to cover yourself, LEW?
William Simpson’s monograph is available online, by the way:
Which Way Western Man?
Tear down the walls and provide for the free flow of information
http://stumbleinn.net/forum/showthread.php?p=293032#post293032
What I see the Auntie-Covingtonistas and Hunter’s bunch doing is simply saying that White Nationalism must follow their lead — as opposed to White Nationalism being what White Nationalism is — not a hierarchy but rather a network in which everyone dies his own thing and usually views ‘The Enemy’ not as being the jews or muds or even the ZOG/Babylonian regime criminals, but rather the Whigger Nutsionalist who is the most like theysselfs, and thus competition in the very same niche that they occupy for supporters and money.
Now recently my web pages were taken down by some dirty little faggot mamzer with a past around Richard Barrett that Eli James and William Finck brought in, who falsely claimed that I was violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act because I published its Facebook profile before it took it down as showing that it wasn’t white. In fifteen years on the Internut, I have been kicked off of my Internet Service Provider in Granby by some evil bitch who was all upset that I had told her that no, she couldn’t claim to be Christian Identity and get to speak sermons in Church as an unordained minister. Likewise, this last misconduct in which I have had three of my web pages taken down was caused by those who pretended to be Dual-Seedline Christian Identity, and had gotten away, like Eli James/Joseph November with the impersonation for over thirty years. Open jews didn’t take down my web pages. These web pages were taken down by jews and mamzers and whiggers pretending to be Christian Identity.
Now I have a totally different notion of what will happen than Fade/Hunter. My idea is of a Great Tribulation in which over 90% of the whigger and all of the mud and jew element is exterminated, largely by the collapse of the social order in all of its facets. Now does Fade/Hunter have a problem with me, or with Greg Johnson, who is Fade’s White Nationalist competition? The end result is that since I am no danger to Fade/Hunter’s core audience, I can post pretty much as I please here on Fade’s blog because I am not taking any of Fade’s resources. Nor is Fade taking any of my resources, but rather many of my supporters are always on my ass for being nice to Fade/Hunter, when in point of fact is that since we have so very little in common, we both can thrive in peace, like elephants and sharks, in our own particular areas of the White Nationalist [bowel] Movement. Fade/Hunter is doing his own thing on his own nickel, insofar as I know. Fade/Hunter doesn’t support Alex Linder or TraitorGlenn Miller, and thus I have no quarrel with Fade/Hunter.
Now since TraitorGlenn Miller’s [s]election strategy — actually making sure that it is impossible to now buy cheap advertising for elections in Missouri, and soon elsewhere — ended up with TraitorGlenn Miller getting all of two votes for the entire state of Missouri as a write-in, much of TraitorGlenn’s support has died away. After all, since likely all that happened was that TraitorGlenn beat pore Margy’s ass and told her that there was a second drunken ass-whupping cummin if there were not at least two votes for TGM in Lawrence County, it sort of makes one wonder what was the point of WhiggerSwill, Ron Doggett and the rest of the TGM Circus of the ZOGbot Clowns on VNNF/TGMNNF/GFRTCNNF sending in $4,907 through the Department of ZOGland InSecurity PAC when all along TraitorGlenn Miller could have guaranteed the two write-in votes that were all TGM did get all along in the first place?
The political strategy that White Nationalism should take is not the German combat strategy of trying to break through at one point like the point of a knife blade. White Nationalists are not SS. They ain’t even a Job Corps in jewniform. Rather, it should be like that of the Russians, who would fight along a broad front against those who couldn’t be located in every single place and thus couldn’t defend everything. Somewhere there would be a collapse in the lines and an attack into the rear, and then crisis after crisis that neither the German Army nor the Roman Empire could survive. Being akin to vandals and bandits and brigands is what Whigger Nutsionalism is more about. So rather than [j]unite and overwhelm like a white elephant, a strategy of rat-bites from 50,000 undisciplined rats in a creschendo of chaos — Whigger Nutsionalists do chaos very well — as ZOG falls apart will be what works and what is done.
So rather than make rules as to what shall be on your forum, perhaps a more flexible approach is warranted. Why not allow Harold Covington or Jack Ryan or myself to post links to Covington’s material, especially the podcasts, given that almost all of us are already listening to them anyway? I listened to Covington’s latest podcast — I listen to all of Covington’s podcasts — and the points made about the ‘intellectual’ portion of the bowel Movement was telling. Every little mini-fuerher wants to make sure that he and he alone gets to shear his little flock of sheep. Fine.
But given that the Movement is a network of nodes and links rather than a hierarchy, wouldn’t it be best to simply acknowledge this fact and tear down the walls and provide for the free flow of information?
Hail Victory!!!
Pastor Martin Luther Dzerzhinsky Lindstedt
Church of Jesus Christ Christian/Aryan Nations of Missouri
http://cjcc-an.blogspot.com/ (for now)
Bullshit.
1.) Search the archives. There are multiple threads from January to August of us doing all sorts of things in the real world. There are videos of this on our YouTube channel.
2.) I confronted Jeffrey Imm in the streets twice when no one else had the balls to do so.
3.) I spent August to November heavily involved in mainstream politics in Alabama.
So you admit you aren’t going to do nothing but criticize conservatives on the internet for not acting on your own beliefs? You exempt yourself from your radical program, but expect others to go into battle with your standard.
This is a great example of how vanguardism is fool’s gold. It is a false, non-existent, purely rhetorical escapist alternative to the “mainstreamer” position.
I can openly work within the mainstream in Alabama to campaign for White Nationalist ideas like ending legal immigration, deporting illegal aliens, and ending birthright citizenship. Unlike the vanguardists, I am proud of the overwhelming victory we won in Alabama and Georgia, the consequences of which will be felt early next year.
As I explained to you, Gray Davis was elected Governor of California and dropped the appeal. Unlike Gray Davis, Jan Brewer was reelected in Arizona, and will fight for SB 1070 all the way up to the Supreme Court.
Elections have consequences.
If Pete Wilson had been reelected, the appeal over Prop 187 would have gone through the Ninth Circus to the Supreme Court, not unlike SB 1070 today. Prop 187 would have been upheld by the 5-4 majority on the SCOTUS and illegals would have fled California.
Instead, the vanguardists got their way. Remember, “worse is better.” Well, “worse is better” triumphed in California with Gray Davis over Pete Wilson, the Governator over Tom McClintock, and now with Moonbeam over Meg Whitman.
On the contrary, it had absolutely everything to do with the failure of the White Nationalist movement, which was glued at the time to the moronic idea that “worse is better” and the destruction of California would somehow result in a vindication of their ridiculous program.
Conservatives had political power in California … and passed Prop 187 and defended it up to the Ninth Circus. Then Gray Davis won and he dropped the lawsuit.
What did White Nationalist vanguardists do in California in the 1990s? Nothing at all.
The rest of the nation will certainly share California’s fate if Whites are stupid enough to buy into the vanguardist “worse is better” theory which produced spectacular results on the Left Coast. Fortunately, that sort of mental retardation doesn’t hold much sway around here.
Yet another good example of how vanguardists would destroy large parts of the country and make lives miserable for millions of White people … for no other reason than the prayer that the collapse of civilization (a highly unlikely scenario) will work to their advantage (even more unlikely).
“Worse is better” has triumphed in Massachusetts, Vermont, and Hawaii. Shouldn’t the vanguardists be making progress there like they have been doing in California?
David Duke abandoned a losing strategy for a winning strategy. Thanks for making my case. If had continued to march around in a Nazi uniform, he would never have been a blip in Louisiana state politics.
According to the vanguardist “worse is better” theory, the deteriorating social and economic conditions in South Africa should have resulted in a Neo-Nazi triumph. In South Africa, there was even a Hitler on a White Horse (Eugene Terre’blanche) to lead the vanguardists to victory.
How much worse does life have to get for White people in South Africa for things to get better? How many White South Africans have to be murdered, raped, and robbed for this particular Neo-Nazi fantasy to produce results? Isn’t it far more likely that Whites will continue to respond to the decline of South Africa like they have responded to the decline of California and the Netherlands, which is packing their bags and fleeing to more hospitable areas?
(1) You said earlier that the mere presence of illegal aliens in America was sufficient to awaken Whites to the existence of the problem. Now, you are backtracking.
(2) Crime reform was passed under the Clinton administration by the Republican Congress. The problem has diminished considerably since that time.
(3) Why isn’t conservative talk radio publicizing these facts? Because of the disorganization of the Far Right. There is no organized mass constituency on the Far Right pulling the conservative movement in a more pro-White direction. The pressure comes exclusively from the highly organized Left.
The Bell Curve was one of the most famous books to be published over the last twenty years. It indisputably did far more to raise awareness of the existence of racial differences in intelligence than vanguardists fantasizing about the Fourth Reich on VNN Forum.
Another example of vanguardists making the perfect the enemy of the good. Nothing less than sweeping, instant, transformative change is sufficient to satisfy them. Reality doesn’t work that way. It takes time to weaken and undermine entrenched taboos.
What’s the difference? Mainstreamers like Charles Murray and Pat Buchanan and Mearsheimer and Walt reach an audience of millions whereas the vanguardists reach a handful of radically alienated anonymous people on the internet the majority of whom are socially dysfunctional.
The vanguardists have been smugly betting on “the collapse” of America since the days when my father was at college. They are the White Nationalist equivalent of evangelical Christians who plan their lives around The Rapture.
Re: Greg Johnson
Unlike Greg Johnson, I have taken the time to set priorities and translate my pro-White ideals into policy positions, and have something resembling an actual strategy for advancing my views into the political mainstream.
This strategy is based upon reality based thinking, incremental progress, eschewing counterproductive rhetoric, the necessity of acquiring legitimacy, using polarization to activate implicit Whiteness, building coalitions with other groups, and moving the goal posts on key issues.
The priority is immigration policy.
Almost everything that a White Nationalist could hope for on immigration policy can now openly be advocated in the mainstream: militarizing the border, building the fence, deporting illegals, ending birthright citizenship, cutting legal immigration, punishing employers of illegal aliens, etc.
In Alabama, the Tea Party supports most of these proposed changes. The overwhelming majority of Whites in Alabama (and those in Georgia) who share my point of view are working through the Republican Party to accomplish these changes.
Unlike Greg Johnson, I am deadly serious about mainstreaming White identity politics, and reversing the demographic tide in my native region. I’m not engaged in some type of adolescent rebellion that requires spurning and pushing away people who I can work with.
I’ve repeatedly said that vanguardists make the perfect the enemy of the good. They will settle for nothing less than instant, transformative, sweeping change. This reflects their detachment from reality and their pronounced tendency to think in terms of fantasies and miracles (i.e., Hitler on a White horse).
It is an axiom of politics that the right thing is almost always done for the right reasons. Sure, it would be nice for Americans to end legal immigration for purely racial reasons, but if they can be persuaded to do so because of deteriorating economic conditions, so much the better. The effective result is the same.
(1) If you browse his website, you will see that Greg Johnson is actually engaging the far edge of the fringe. He has set a course for the fringe, not the mainstream, and the content of Counter-Currents reflects that.
(2) The most effective way to move the mainstream in our direction is by adapting our message and pushing from within the mainstream itself, not by crying about how awful America is on the fringes of society.
(3) CIS, FAIR, NumbersUSA are winners whose model on immigration should be copied in other areas of concern to us.
Here’s your choice:
(1) You can remain an irrelevant marginalized fantasist posting anonymous comments on the internet with the rest of the vanguardists like Alex Linder and Greg Johnson.
(2) Alternatively, you can articulate a strong platform on immigration in your state or community, and establish yourself as a respected leader and authority figure with real influence.
It is the difference between no control and no influence or some control and some influence.
We should translate the White Nationalist position on immigration into policy positions and work within the mainstream to elect candidates who will advance our point of view.
This is false.
(1) There are White Nationalists with plenty of money. Greg Johnson is well aware of this.
(2) Those White Nationalists can make campaign contributions to restrictionist candidates at the state level. I’m thinking of state senators, state representatives, county sheriffs, and so on. They can gain real influence over the very sort of people who are likely to rise to more prominent positions in the future.
(3) There are enough White Nationalists to swing close races in any number of states.
(4) If our goals are the destruction of Christianity, the glorification of fascism, the abolition of America, and the end of a free society, pro-Whites would be well advise to look elsewhere for relief rather than subsidize activity that is clearly counterproductive in an American context.
It is unlikely only in the sense that White Nationalists are too alienated and lazy to do anything effective to reverse our decline. Ultimately, there is nothing stopping them from swinging close races with their votes (thereby demonstrating actual political power) or leaning on state senators and reps and becoming actual string pullers.
A delusional fantasy.
(1) My plan is more like investing in a solid community bank that pays high dividends. We are already reaping a healthy return on our investment of backing restrictionists at the state level. See Arizona.
(2) Your plan of changing the most fundamental values of White Americans with Counter-Currents … it is a pie-in-the-sky, utopian fantasy.
The difference here is that I am not asking for your money. Unlike Greg Johnson, I am not dependent on subsidies from the White Nationalist community.
Getting cleaned out … the effective result of subsidizing Greg Johnson with a welfare program. Zero return on investment. Nothing to point to but making alienated people even more alienated and ineffective at changing their circumstances.
Johnson has regressed from being a contributor to a paparazzi.
Re: Hunter’s post of 11/20 8:42PM:
Hunter is not right about everything (he didn’t know Rupert Murdoch is a Jew) – but he’s right about most things. Hunter – I find your analysis to be brilliant.
Re: point 19 – My fellow Whities are CHRISTIANS. Many are corrupted Judeos, and don’t know it. They identify as Christiansm however, no matter how pure their doctrinal conceptualizations may or may not be. Were I to start trashing Christianity, in trying to win White Hearts – I would be DOA. Done, cooked, and not eaten, but spat out.
The Anti Christian vemon of WN is an absolute negative, where I sit. I’m meeting all kinds of people. I won’t bring up racial issues for a while. I toss in little asides – but I must establish my credibility and trustworthiness, first. I will NOT tell any-one that they cannot bring the message of the Christ to their Little Pet Darkies. I will suggest that perhps the Darkies are not go to run this the Jesus Fish Ball as far as …ahhh…errr.. People of European Descent can, and do ….that we ought to guide them – but not BE them. I’m not gonna fight The Cross. I’m going to try to work under the influence of the Cross, to serve my Race. Christianity has been subverted by the Hook Noses – let’s take it back. They aren’t playing nicely with the toys they’ve stolen, so we have to take out thhings back.
Point 21 – YES YES YES! Establishing ourselves as trustworthy leaders is hard You actually have to talk to people, endure their maddening ignorance. nd you have to show up at events. It’s not as much fun as fantaziign on the Net – but do we want a 3D White Homeland, or are on-line Build a Country video games more deeply satisfying.
I was counselled yesterday, by a Home Schoolin’ Blue Eyed Christian of many gorgeous, charming blue-eyed blond kiddies, not to bite the head of some old geezer that “We are becoming just like Nazi Germany”, but instead to make a friend. Gently tell the old guy how he’s wrong. I am FAR from perfect, in real world practices, and biting off heads has been my speciality. I too must learn to assess when I am being effective, and when I am not. Reclaiming Hitler is my mission – since I believe to my marrow that Judaic power rests on the Holohoax fraud. But I must Tell Truth gently…(Note to Self – remember the report you read, written by US Military Intelligence,. when there still was some, that had Hitler gone into Russia as a Liberator, instead of a wannabe Conqueror, he woulda won. I am liberator of the Un-Awakened , and must curtail what I believe is a genetic predispostion to heavy-duty Sarcastic Wise Assery, in my family line. ‘Zounds! So I know it’s not easy Being White!)
But this Christian Daddy – who seemed to know why I was so cheesed by the nonsense the Old Geezer was spewing…hhhmmm… reminded my that there are several ways to climb a mountain. So perhaps WN can learn something from them Stoopid Clooless Sheeple…nah…that could never happen…….
We are so pre-occupied figting each other, over the One True Way, that we forget that conditions vary on the ground. What works in one place will not work in another. We should be spending this time figuring out ways to exploit and take advantage of the mistakes of the Hook Noses. They are getting sloppier by the minute. Why aren’t we coming together on this topic?
Get yer boots on the ground. Work your soil. Move to Wyoming or where-ever else ya wanna go. But get yer boots on the ground.
In closing – it’s not going to be one way or another. It’s going to be every scenario that we debate. It already is every scenario we debate. We must learn to ride the waves of what’s happening. To try to steer our Race to smooth waters, instead of hitting the rocks.
@Ivan
Thanks for responding. I’ll take a closer look at WWWM. Read small selections from it over the years but not all of it — it’s 900 pages from what I remember, a big time commitment, but I trust the judgment of other WN if you feel it’s worth the time.
I still think Pierce himself illustrates the fatal flaw in the vanguard approach. The vanguardist position represents a kind of theoretical ideal that world be great if we could implement it, but we can’t — and the whole history of vanguard WN proves it. The vanguard position is akin to arguing “fossil fuels are the problem so we need fusion reactors.” Yes, Fusion reactors would be great if we could build one, but we can’t so other approaches need be considered until we can.
Regarding Pierce’s lasting influence, if he had just stuck with Physics he might have gotten tenure somewhere in the mainstream. He then could have held forth from a tenured position and maybe become the WN Noam Chomsky.
Why are people still arguing about a “Vanguard” vs “Mainstream” approach? Do the Hunter Wallaces and Greg Johnsons exemplify the only paths or hopes for pro-White people? Put a bullet in your head if they do.
“Bullshit.”
While some race realists built Jeff Imm up into a left wing superman the truth is that he is a complete nobody who isn’t taken seriously by anyone. If you had the courage of your convictions then why didn’t you show your face on camera like you expect every other WN to do? The immediate results of your brief foray into street activism was what exactly?
“So you admit you aren’t going to do nothing but criticize conservatives on the internet for not acting on your own beliefs? You exempt yourself from your radical program, but expect others to go into battle with your standard.”
No, I don’t expect other WN’s to go public because it could adversely affect their livelihoods. Most people with two feet planted firmly on the ground understand this unfortunate reality. Some of us have real jobs that we can’t afford to lose and don’t subsist off wealthy relatives.
“The rest of the nation will certainly share California’s fate if Whites are stupid enough to buy into the vanguardist “worse is better” theory which produced spectacular results on the Left Coast. Fortunately, that sort of mental retardation doesn’t hold much sway around here. ”
California was just the first battle in a much wider war. The example of it is helping to produce spectacular results in other states who are horrified at the prospect of becoming the next California. But I forgot, no evidence is needed to convince the masses. All it takes is conservative activism and conservative talk radio to to convince the nation it’s not in their interests.
“(1) You said earlier that the mere presence of illegal aliens in America was sufficient to awaken Whites to the existence of the problem. Now, you are backtracking.”
Yes I did and you yourself cited the problems associated with illegal immigration in Alabama as the primary reason for your political awakening in 2001 just a few days ago on this site? I can’t wait for you to spin your own words. Hundreds of thousands of people were radicalized against illegal immigration in much the same way. But “better is better” according to you and even if there wasn’t one illegal alien in the state you and the good citizens of Alabama would still be passing laws to rid yourselves of them because Lou Dobbs and Jeff Sessions told you to do it.
“(2) Crime reform was passed under the Clinton administration by the Republican Congress. The problem has diminished considerably since that time.”
Good one Ace. First, you claim blacks are raping 35,000 white women annually but thanks to a liberal Democrat that problem has largely abated. Make up your mind. I thought elections only have negative consequences when conservatives lose.
“Another example of vanguardists making the perfect the enemy of the good. Nothing less than sweeping, instant, transformative change is sufficient to satisfy them. Reality doesn’t work that way. It takes time to weaken and undermine entrenched taboos.”
It takes time does it? It seems that’s what Trainspotter was trying to get through to you but now your taking the opposite tact. The Bell Curve was published in 1994, has yet to usher in a change to radical racial equality legislation but you advise patience. WN has existed in cyberspace for about the same time, has not produced any tangible results in the political arena which is evidence to you of its wrong headed approach to so many things. Welcome to double-talk 101.
“The Bell Curve was one of the most famous books to be published over the last twenty years. It indisputably did far more to raise awareness of the existence of racial differences in intelligence than vanguardists fantasizing about the Fourth Reich on VNN Forum. ”
Cut the bullshit. It’s my understanding that you were a former member of VNN forum as “fade the butcher” and one time admirer of the fuhrer of Kirksville, but now you are the anti-Linder. As for myself I’ve never been a member of VNN forum and I have no opinion of the man. I don’t agree with everything he says but he has produced some excellent work over the years.
It would be more accurate to say that my attitude toward Linder has fluctuated over the years. I started out with an intense dislike of him. After the Knoxville rally over Christian and Newsom, I reconsidered my previous view. Then I swung back to my previous strongly negative opinion.
I gave Linder credit for showing up in Knoxville to denounce a truly heinous crime. In the long term, that one positive action on his part was outweighed by his larger negatives.
Denise,
I have read your comments from time to time on OD and this last one here is by far your best. I wish you well in your ‘work’ and look forward to ‘progress reports’, lol.
Oldtimer whines: “I swear that this Will Williams character must have a Google Alert out on Covingtons name since every time HAC’s name is mentioned here or else where, Will Williams shows up to bad mouth him and relate that long tale of woe about how HAC supposedly owes him $200,000…”
That’s right, Old-timer. It’s a shitty post, but some character has to hold it to keep you uncritical Covingtonistas honest. FYI, the $200,000+ that defendant Covington owes me is not “supposed.” My judgment is duly-obtained in the real world where publishers can be held accountable for exceeding the limits of free speech with malice aforethought. Anti-Defamation Law — It’s a White thang; use it or lose it!
Will Williams
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 60
Why are White Racial Loyalists using the enemy’s terminology?
Originally Posted by Mike
Jonathan Pyle provides a very interesting review of Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream, a book on White Nationalism written by “anti-racist” Jew Leonard Zeskind.
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net…e-Zeskind.html
“…Zeskind provides abundant evidence that White nationalist activity is not the result of stupidity. He is clearly impressed by the intelligence of individuals like William Pierce, who was a physics professor before he was a vanguardist…”
—
[WW:]
So, is this where the categorical term “vanguardist” originated, as opposed to “mainstreamer?” From this career anti-White Jew watchdog, Zeskind? Or is that the reviewer Pyle’s terminology?
I’ve seen where “Hunter Wallace,” formerly from this site, as I understand, enjoys separating people into these two camps: the vanguardist losers vs. his mainstreamer winners. He claimed that those representative of the vanguardist approach are George Lincoln Rockwell (a Xian nationalist who planned to be elected POTUS in ’72 by the mainstream electorate, BTW), Dr. William Pierce, and Harold Covington. No kidding — just those three, the first two being long departed, so Covington being the last vanguardist standing..
FACT!: Dr. Pierce was the only man of those three who understood and attempted to implement the revolutionary vanguard approach. “Hunter Wallace,” with his “vanguardism,” certainly does not grasp the concept, no matter how many times one tries to explain it to him. He says, here, just today: http://www.occidentaldissent.com/201…comment-118299
“…[V]anguardism is fool’s gold. It is a false, non-existent, purely rhetorical escapist alternative to the ‘mainstreamer’ position…the vanguardists reach a handful of radically alienated anonymous people on the internet the majority of whom are socially dysfunctional.”
Nice. This is who someone put in charge of The (now mainstreamed) Occidental Quarterly Online? “Hunter” promotes his “vanguardist” fraud, Harold Covington, not to mention Pastor Mad Dog Lindstadt’s nuttiness, yet claiming the mainstreamer mantle, I suppose, so he can further bash Dr. Pierce and his followers?
Dr. Pierce had it right about mainstreamers like “Hunter” 40 years ago when he wrote his timeless essay Why Conservatives Can’t Win: http://nationalvanguard.org/2010/09/…ives-cant-win/
WhiggerSwill is a museum quality specimen of the aging, hyper alienated, ineffective rhetorical radical vanguardist living in a fantasy world (Traitor Glenn Miller would be another) who talks a hard game on the internet while accomplishing absolutely nothing for White people in real life.
The differences between WhiggerSwill and HAC are relatively minor compared to their more profound similarities. The most important difference seems to be that HAC is a better writer and isn’t a raging alcoholic.
I could easily write an essay called Why Vanguardists Have Never Accomplished anything. Too bad everyone already knows this.
Hunter Wallace says:
“The differences between WhiggerSwill and HAC are relatively minor compared to their more profound similarities. The most important difference seems to be that HAC is a better writer and isn’t a raging alcoholic”.
Hunter, you just lost the remaining credibility that you have, if you had any left at all.
Will Williams does not drink alcohol. In all of my time with him and my visit at his home, I have never seen an alcohic drink in his hand.
Now go ahead and and slander me too. That seems to be the only thing you are good at anyways.
Biological Racist is back.
I haven’t seen him around much since promoting the “biggest rally in years” in Knoxville. Are you the Governor of Tennessee or the merely the Lieutenant Governor?
Hunter, you know that I do not get involved with political parties, nor care to. My focus is on my religion of Creativity.
The Knoxville rally was attended by the largest number of White Nationalists in years, but most of them were not allowed through the police barricades and turned away. You have been conviently ignoring that fact.
The primary reason that I wanted you to come down here, is so that you can see first hand, how developed White Nationalism is in East Tennessee. But now that I have observed your childish attittude, I am glad that you didn’t.
Hey, Hunter! How’s the wife doing? How about the kids?
I really don’t think you’re the best person to go poking at another individual’s unhinged mental stability. You’re probably more like him than you realize.
“WhiggerSwill”
I have a vague idea of your history with these particular folks.
What this exchange looks like however is that the ‘new’ you; healthy, happy, working on yer new strategy and producing good results, is kinda getting sucked back into something you appear wise to have left behind.
I hope you keep your face to the sun and walk on.
Hunter,
I feel it would work better if you just announced in a 100% way that O.D. is now going mainstream and that you wish others who are going different ways – all the best in the different paths they choose.
And then find some way to ban a few Vanguard people from making comments here.
As it stands Vanguard people are coming here, making comments insulting you, insulting each other, sharing their personal feuds, personal obsessions – some of which go back 40 years.
O.D. is no longer linking to any RFNW podcasts – and we/I only linked to a few podcasts that I thought were well done.
I don’t see that it profits anyone for Will Williams to show up here and push his long winded requests to get money from some judgment against Mr. Covington or for other Vanguard folks to come here and say you suck, mainstream activists suck, are Neo Con sell outs and then for you or others to have to respond that Vanguard folks aren’t winning anything and are losers etc.
Why not just part ways in a positive manner, wish others who don’t want to go mainstream the best and then get back to doing very positive posts, links to White Americans doing things right in politics, culture, education, sports?
This is Hunter’s blog, so I just don’t think it is right for Vanguard folks to come here and waste time and space saying Hunter sucks, or I suck, I’m stupid – or anyone who has a job, participates in the American electoral system is a traitor, sell out, sucks etc.
And I’ll continue to listen to RFNW and promote Mr. Covington’s books on my own time and wish other Vanguard types some success in other paths they choose.
Hunter, it is reality that Will Williams has some type of computer notice that goes off whenever Covington’s name is mentioned here and then he will always come here to post comments of the same old, same old rant about his money judgement and how he hates Covington etc – he’ll do this until he dies and these types tend to live long, long, obsessive lives.
14 Words.
JR
I’ve never banned anyone from the state of Alabama. I don’t live in a fantasy world where I pretend I have the authority to do that.
Fair enough.
What’s the matter Will, that $3000 nut check you get from ” da gubmint” for being certifiably insane not enough to live off anymore? Lets just clarify for those who don’t know, the only reason that Covington ” owes” you money is because you sued him for slander and he never went to court to fight you on it. Meanwhile you are now known as an old goat whose only current claim to fame is attacking other White Nationalists. That is why you have been kicked off just about every WN message board on the planet.
Now go into your tirade about me. Maybe you can make up something new about me, all the old rants about me being a whore are getting tiresome.
april gaede says:
November 22, 2010 at 12:38 am
What’s the matter Will, that $3000 nut check you get from ” da gubmint”….
Jack Ryan replies.
Can this really be true, are we being honored with a visit with the one and only April Gaede?!!!!!
Wow – I am such a fan of yours. When I first saw you on that British guy’s documentary Louis and the N….. I was in awe.
April, I know that you have many, many fans – and I hope most are responsible, “SANE” fans, but count me as one of your very best.
I don’t know if you remember, but I was the only positive caller-in to your appearance on Alan Colmes radio show about your match making service.
I put up the whole radio show here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW5TXnUL73k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceNTlPNnW_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkPs2jiraDY
April, I come in at 2:47 on the 3rd/last link. Alan was trying to cut me off and abuse me but I thought I got in some solid support for you and our cause.
I also produced this video about the bad people spreading lies about you and your daughters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LHQvnTp7cQ&feature=related
Youtube (Jewtube) originally took down my video after some A-hole lawyers for the Go-Gos objected, but I note someone else has put it up.
April – you are one in
6 MILLION – THE BEST!
How’s the match making going? I’m single, healthy, wealthy looking to procreate.
🙂
Love ya
Jack in Chicago
Stalin before 1933: “German Communists, don’t fight Hitler, fight the Social Democrats instead.”
German Communist Party : “Why don’t we fight the Nazi enemy? They’re the big threat. After all, the Social Democrats are on the same side as us? We don’t get it, oh wise Vanguard Leader of the World Revolution?”
Stalin : “The Social Democrats are traitors to the cause, since they’re not extremists like us. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to fight them instead of working with them. Also, fascism is the final stage of capitalism, so when the enemy get’s stronger, it means he’s about to loose, really”.
German Communists : “Uh… Ok, Comrade Stalin”.
German Communists after 1933, being stood up against a wall: “Uh-oh…”.
“That’s right, Old-timer. It’s a shitty post, but some character has to hold it to keep you uncritical Covingtonistas honest. FYI, the $200,000+ that defendant Covington owes me is not “supposed.” My judgment is duly-obtained in the real world where publishers can be held accountable for exceeding the limits of free speech with malice aforethought. Anti-Defamation Law — It’s a White thang; use it or lose it!”
Actually, Will, my complaint (‘whining” if you like) is centered mostly around your obscessive-compulsive disorder of repeating the same banal nonesense about Covington and your $200,000 judgement. That is, the repetition of the same demented nonsense repeatedly, without being able to move to another topic (by the way, nonstop repetition of the same thing over and over is characteristic of mentally retarded people). Your “judgement” may have been “duly-obtained”, but then so was the 2 million dollar “judgement” that the lady in Florida obtained against McDonald’s because the cup of coffee that SHE put between her knees spilled and burned her crotch. If I had been on that jury she wouldn’t have received a dime. No points for stupidity! The point is; frivolous lawsuits are endemic to this Republic now-ask any ambulance chasing lawyer. Just because some jury awarded you a judgement does not necessarily mean it was justified, rather it might have meant that they were more biased against Harold Covington than you. By the way, I am not a “Covingtonista”, I would not move to the Pacific NW, or be a “follower” of his, I just enjoy his writing and podcasts.
Concerning this comment from Jack Ryan:
“I don’t see that it profits anyone for Will Williams to show up here and push his long winded requests to get money from some judgment against Mr. Covington or for other Vanguard folks to come here and say you suck, mainstream activists suck, are Neo Con sell outs and then for you or others to have to respond that Vanguard folks aren’t winning anything and are losers etc.”
I don’t often find myself agreeing with Mr. Ryan, but in this instance I most certainly do. The Vanguard jokes have their own venues and should stick to them, and people with obvious agendas (like “Will Williams”) should be banned. They are tiresome and divisive.
Mary says: “‘WhiggerSwil’
I have a vague idea of your history with these particular folks.
What this exchange looks like however is that the ‘new’ you; healthy, happy, working on yer new strategy and producing good results, is kinda getting sucked back into something you appear wise to have left behind.
I hope you keep your face to the sun and walk on.”
—
Thanks for that, Mary. I do have a knack for drawing out the usual suspects so they can show their asses. I kind of like it when “Hunter” and Ms. “Come Home to the NorthWest Territory” Gaede and Jack Ryan, Mad Dog Lindstadt, et al, are all yammering about what an insane ol’ drunk I am rather than addressing what I’ve raised about Covington’s NW Republic scam and “Hunter’s” phony fight between vanguardists v. mainstreamers. I’ve never seen so many contradictions as in “Hunter’s” attempting to sell White folks on his idea that that big tent conservatism is how the White resistance has got to be.
Talking about getting “sucked up into something,” do you think I should reply to Ms. Gaede’s accusation that I called her a whore? Where did that come from? She never could leave a sleeping dog lie.
My own history (and WhiggerSwill’s) are rather vague, Mary. I like it that way. Let people believe the myths that defendant Covington has spun over two decades that I’m a murderer and arsonist and queer and child rapist and FBI Special Agent and John Doe #2, Tim McVeigh’s handler…oh, and an insane ol’ drunk. It adds a bit of mystery to one’s life to have folks believe you’re a ten-foot tall JOG bad-ass who has supposedly destroyed a dozen pro-White organizations, including at least three of Covington’s so far.
Check out the only comment that Dr. Pierce ever wrote about the insufferable gadfly Covington, from 18 years ago, here: http://noncounterproductive.blogspot.com/
His editorial is entitled The Perils of Hobbyism and he was addressing the National Alliance membership in the monthly internal members BULLETIN. There are even side-by-side photographs of me and Covington there which Dr. Pierce thought spoke 2,000 words.
.
Mr. Williams, my comment was directed at Hunter.
He has been a great source of positivity lately and I wanted to let him know how much I appreciate his blogging on his health changes and particularly the political direction he is moving in.
I can see how that post might have been misunderstood though-my apologies.
No apology necessary, Mary. A comment to “Hunter” probably shouldn’t have begun with with a salutation to “WhiggerSwill.”
Jack Ryan supposes: “Hunter, it is reality that Will Williams has some type of computer notice that goes off whenever Covington’s name is mentioned here…”
$8.95 at Radio Shack. Ask for the Idiot Alert Gizmo.
Oldtimer, you should stick to commenting about subjects about which you know. You know little about libel law. There was no jury verdict; Williams v. Covington was a bench trial. The judgment awarded to me can’t reasonably be compared to the McDonald’s scalding coffee case.
Wouldn’t it be handy if every professional defamer who decides he can’t defend his serious accusations of serial and mass murder, arson, theft, etc., against his victim simply decides to take off and run rather than be held accountable and forced to defend his smears — then declare victory on the Internet? That’s not how it works, Oldtimer.
You say my agenda is obvious. That’s because my agenda is so simple: tell the truth and expose lies. I’ll always defend Dr. Pierce and his world view from his bad-mouthers and I can be counted on to jump in and expose defendant Covington as a World Class Liar and Fraud every time my gizmo goes off.
“Oldtimer, you should stick to commenting about subjects about which you know. You know little about libel law. There was no jury verdict; Williams v. Covington was a bench trial.”
I defer to your superior knowledge of the subject since after all, like so many, you probably earn some comfortable money on the side with this type of activity.
“The judgment awarded to me can’t reasonably be compared to the McDonald’s scalding coffee case.”
-Sure it can, it is frivolous and therein lies its similarity to the McDonald’s case.
I suppose his statements regarding you caused you “mental anguish” and this is why the judgement was rendered? Poor thing, mean words were said about you and you suffered so much that you were awarded $200,000.? Are you a business owner whose business could have been negatively impacted by his “defamation”? Are you a “prominent personality” whose “career” could have been negatively impacted? Or are you simply an embittered . disgruntled individual looking for extra income? If you are so enamored with seeking “justice” for the “wrong” done to you why don’t you pursue him across state lines in court (according to the US Supreme Court – you can).
My original complaint against your post is that you are riding a hobby-horse. My complaint stands. This web site is supposedly devoted to discussion of means to promote white interests in this country- not personal vendettas such as yours.
@ Jack Ryan;
Wow! I do not know what happened, but I typed in one word; “agreed” – and then I accidentally hit the enter button, and “poof” your last comment was gone! I know it could not have been anything that I did, as I have no ability to affect comments on this site except to post my own. However, I wanted to quote the last sentence or two of your response and then type: “agreed; it works in Florida”! Anyway, you will know what I meant.
@ Will Williams;
Because I anticipate that you will object to my assertion that you cannot pursue your judgement across state lines, I offer the following quote:
“In recent years, the U.S. Supreme Court has allowed that only factual misrepresentation is to be considered libel or slander, not expression of opinion. It has also ruled that libel suits may be filed across state lines, not only in the state where the plaintiff lives.” This is from ; http://www.questia.com/library/law/areas-of-law/civil-law/law-of-libel-and-slander.jsp
Now, if you devote the same effort to pursuing this in court that you do on this (and I assume) other websites, maybe you can get some attention from the courts on this matter-not that I sympathize with you. I believe that you already know this, but have not bothered because you already know that HAC cannot be made to pay since he barely survives on what he makes now. You can always try though! It would be like trying to squeeze tomato juice from a rock, but have at it!
Oldtimer wrote:
“Poor thing, mean words were said about you and you suffered so much that you were awarded $200,000.? Are you a business owner whose business could have been negatively impacted by his “defamation”? Are you a “prominent personality” whose “career” could have been negatively impacted? Or are you simply an embittered . disgruntled individual looking for extra income?”
During the period of the suit in question, Will Williams was the Membership Coordinator for the National Alliance. I believe he was the first man chosen by Dr. Pierce for that job.
Covington’s attacks on Williams were part and parcel of his larger effort to destroy the National Alliance and were often accompanied by the basest attacks on Dr. Pierce.
Covington’s bogus assertion (partially through fraudulent news report that he wrote himself) that Will Williams was really FBI Special Agent Finchley, John Doe #2 from OKC, could have done tremendous damage to the NA’a outreach efforts and thus to the larger effort of White racial awakening and renewal. Here is an example of the fraudulent article(s) in question, beneath an ADL blurb highlighting some of Will’s activism in his home state:
http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/04-17-05/discussion.cgi.88.html
You can see Harold Covington and Will Williams at the prime of their youth here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GUU-IGqIVmM/TMr4wNBoQjI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/4l586hAiNMY/s1600/The+Perils+of+Hobbyism+2.jpg
Which one looks like a serious Political Soldier to you, the black-haired slob wearing a Halloween costume or the blond Green Beret?
The entire article by Pierce, entitled The Perils of Hobbyism, is available here:
http://noncounterproductive.blogspot.com/2010/10/perils-of-hobbyism-by-dr-william-l.html
Oldtimer says:
November 23, 2010 at 5:56 pm
@ Jack Ryan;
Wow! I do not know what happened, but I typed in one word; “agreed” – and then I accidentally hit the enter button, and “poof” your last comment was gone! I know it could not have been anything that I did…..”
Jack Ryan responds:
No problem and don’t worry about it.
I made too many superfluous comments on the subject of Mr. Covington, RFNW, Movement feuds and Vanguard vs Mainstream and I think this thread and all other threads, including my posts on Mr. Covington, RFNW should be closed down.
Again, I don’t think people need to go in to endless rehashing of Mr. Covington’s whole life, all this past disputes.
Hunter has decided to make O.D. a “Mainstream” blog and he has decided that he/O.D. can not have mainstream success by openly supporting writers, radio commentators that openly support National Socialism, Hitler, working to confront the United States government using IRA style terrorism/revolutionary struggle to form a new nation in the Pacific Northwest (at least at this time).
I was the one who linked to a few of Mr. Covington’s RFNW radio podcasts, I thought/think that they are excellent, but understand that I can not promote Mr. Covington’s work here on O.D.
I think everyone including Mr. Covington should understand this reality and move on.
We need some type of pro White equivalent of
MoveOn.org
where WN, racially conscious Whites “move on”, “move away” from bitter personal feuds from the past.
The past is history
14 words.
Robert Campbell;
I read all the links that you provided, and have to say: “your points are made and taken”. And if Covington is guilty of all these allegations against him, then I owe Mr. Williams an apology. Going on the old adage that “where there is smoke there is fire”, I understand that Covington may indeed be the embodiment of all the negative assertions made about him. Having said that though, you must understand that when mention is made of him and the same person appears to post the same complaints repeatedly (and the complaint revolves around “money owed”) it looks suspicious. I was never a person who followed these NA or WN movement events in the past or was involved in them so for me personally it becomes a “he said”, “she said” issue even if there are a lot of people vocal in their criticism of Covington. Having read your links, I see and understand William’s desire to clear his name, but surely he must realize that there is no chance that he will ever collect that judgement?
I also understand the resistance to the mention of Covington’s literary works or his “organization” on this website, but it has its appeal to quite a few people-indeed he may even be something of a “cult figure” for them and even if his name is never mentioned here again he will still have his followers. That much is simply human nature.
My opinion is that this website should follow its present course and “emphasize the positive” if you will, to avoid the stereotyped WN images of the past and seek promotion of white interests- not to serve as a forum for dredging up past scandals and infighting that evidently were characteristic of the movement’s past. I do not see how it helps this site to serve as a forum for airing personal conflicts. Overexposure of that kind gets tedious, and people will drift away. As others have said; that type of thing is what sites like StormFront are for.
HAC says and writes interesting things from a racial perspective which is all I care about. Most of this information is irrelevant to anyone not going into business with the man.
Oldtimer says to Robert Campbell; “[I]f Covington is guilty of all these allegations against him, then I owe Mr. Williams an apology.”
“Having said that though, you must understand that…[Williams] looks suspicious…for me personally it becomes a “he said”, “she said” issue…[S]urely [Williams] must realize that there is no chance that he will ever collect that judgement?”
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Covington is definitely guilty of the allegations against him, Oldtimer. All of them. You are quite the equivocator.
Do you believe that telling the truth matters, Oldtimer?
I used time-tested libel law (which, for some reason, you call “frivolous”) in an aggressive, offensive legal campaign to reel in an out-of-control famicidal maniac, to neutralize him — the universally-approved “mainstream” solution in getting at the truth in such disputes — and punish him good for his outrageous mendacity. That’s why the nutcase SOB pulls his scam from Seattle now and can’t “come home” to the “Carolina pines” he misses so much.
Why do you cling so to your false premise that I sued Covington “for the money”? Covington says I have a team of JOG-paid Jew lawyers pursuing him night and day, trying to disrupt his Great Aryan Migration. Robert Campbell knows different, but you can’t quite make the leap from your uncritical “he said, she said” mindset to see that there is no gray area with Covington.
How does a sincere race-focused Truther dissemble the well-documented, deliberate sabotage HAC has wrought for decades, smearing legitimate pro-White leaders and their organizations as he has with that sophomoric “brief history”? Answer: Such dissemblers are not Truthers; they probably prefer fiction to non-fiction, escapism to real-world Alliance-building.
“Covington is definitely guilty of the allegations against him, Oldtimer. All of them. You are quite the equivocator.”
Well, you can accuse me of prevarication if you like- the point is I don’t KNOW who is right or wrong in this bloodfeud between the two of you and I really don’t care. I am certainly not going to wade through decades of online (the least reliable of sources) articles to “get at the truth” of the matter. Most sources of information on the activities of the NA and other such organizations are clouded in disinformation, and in some cases by unscrupulous individuals within those movements. One small example of this unscrupulousness would be my attempt to contact Kevin Strom (whom Robert Campbell mentions in one of his links above)- Kevin had a website up a few years ago hawking books by Revilo Oliver and I bought and paid for one. Did I receive it? No. I tried many times to contact the man and he simply ignored me. That is not the act of an honorable man. It is just a small matter in the grand scheme of things, but says something about his character.
“Do you believe that telling the truth matters, Oldtimer?”
Yes I do. I lived in Germany as a child and know well the sad plight of those poor people during and after WW2. I had relatives (gone now) there and got the “other side” of the story of the Nazi era from them. I know about the fire bombings of civilians ; old men, women and children. One thousand bombers at a time, 3 times a day. Can I get “the truth” about that “out there”? Will anyone listen? NO. That was a historical event of momentous importance and we cannot even get people to listen on an issue like that, or delve into the facts that are recorded history. How much more insignificant do you imagine this Harold Covington “controversy” is to WN’s?
I called clogging of the courts with matters like libel lawsuits frivolous because there are hundreds and hundreds of really serious cases (murders, rape) that await trial and get pushed to the back burner because of the sheer volume of such cases. Serious stuff. They are plea-bargained to insignificance. Do you know what the average sentence for murder is in my state (Pennsylvania)? 7 years! We have 21 prisons here housing criminals (at a significant public expense of over $40,000. per year per prisoner). Does this make the term “frivolous” as applied to your libel suit any clearer? You say he made inaccurate statements, misquoted you, misrepresented you, took your comments out of context, whatever. Unless it diminished your income, hurt your business (if you have one) it is not a serious matter in the eyes of the law (at least not today, maybe in the 19th century it was).
“I used time-tested libel law (which, for some reason, you call “frivolous”) in an aggressive, offensive legal campaign to reel in an out-of-control famicidal maniac, to neutralize him — the universally-approved “mainstream” solution in getting at the truth in such disputes — and punish him good for his outrageous mendacity.”
If he is indeed “unstable”, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it unless and until he hurts someone physically. In my job, prior to retirement, I worked in a mental institution. These people, along with “minorities” are a “protected class” of citizen. It is very hard to get anything done about them (witness “street people” who commit crimes and are immediately released). They are exonerated by virtue of their “illness”.
“Why do you cling so to your false premise that I sued Covington “for the money”? ” If not that, then to what end? What exactly do you think the legal system is going to do to him for lying about you? Put him in jail (at great expense when there are so many in jail for much more serious crimes than that already)? If he is mentally disturbed as you say he is, do you really think he is going to publish a retraction, recant and say “I’m sorry”? And even if he were to do just that, I get the impression that even that would not satisfy you.
HAC isn’t going anywhere and unless you have the funds and determination to pursue him across state lines, nothing is going to go your way on this. Even if you did just that, the most that would happen is that he might, I say MIGHT spend a few nights in jail. There would be no monetary restitution, of that I am sure- and you are too, I’ll bet. So what is the point? You have the option and freedom to continue this “tilting at windmills” for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
And by the way Will, I am done with this thread. No matter what is posted after my last comment, that is “finis” for me. I have said all I have to say about this matter and stand by my assertion that the endless rehashing of this matter and other similar personal vendettas have no place here, is a turnoff to interested visitors and detracts from the site’s credibility.
Oh no.
Yet another WN feces-slinging fest.
Arrrghhhh.
The Yids have nothing to worry about at all.
HAC mentions OD again in this week’s podcast. He claims HW might or might not live in Montgomery, Alabama, and that you never know who you are dealing with on the Internet, and then goes on to question the motives of people who criticize the NW front concept.